Nonprofit Rainy Day Funds Dr Tom Vansaghi

Dr. Thomas Vansaghi | Managing Director 

In this Ask the Expert episode, we sit down with Dr. Thomas Vansaghi from UMKC’s Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership to unpack the critical need for rainy day funds in nonprofit operations. From weathering revenue disruptions to boosting donor trust, Dr. Vansaghi lays out practical steps to start, structure, and sustain a reserve fund. Whether you’re a seasoned ED or a scrappy startup, this conversation offers must-hear insights on long-term nonprofit sustainability.

 

Key Takeaways:

  • Rainy Day vs Endowment: A rainy day fund is designed for emergencies and operations, unlike an endowment which typically only allows access to interest earned.
  • Donor Trust & Perception: Having a reserve signals strong financial stewardship, which boosts donor confidence and appeal.
  • Start Small, Be Strategic: Nonprofits can build reserves gradually—aim for 3–6 months of expenses—and treat it like a capital campaign if needed.

What Nonprofit Questions are Answered?

  1. What is a rainy day fund in a nonprofit? A financial reserve set aside for emergencies or unexpected drops in revenue.
  2. How much should a nonprofit keep in a reserve fund? Aim for 3–6 months of operating expenses as a general best practice.
  3. Is a rainy day fund the same as an endowment? No. Endowments typically limit access to interest, while rainy day funds can be spent during financial need.
  4. Can donors fund a rainy day fund? Yes, but it may require creative messaging—treat it like a capital campaign with a mission-aligned pitch.
  5. What are examples of earned income for nonprofits? Ventures like coffee shops, beekeeping, or training programs aligned with the nonprofit’s mission.

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Transcript:

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KC Cares: Welcome to KC Cares, the voice of Kansas City nonprofits. We share the stories of local nonprofits and the individuals who drive them. At KC Cares, we connect the nonprofit and the business sectors to enhance the quality of life

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KC Cares: in Kansas City for both our residents and our visitors. This KC Care segment is brought to you by the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, www.kauffman.org. I’m Ruth Baum Bigus.

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KC Cares: We’ve all heard financial advisors say, save for a rainy day. It’s smart advice for individuals, but it’s just as critical for nonprofits. What does having a financial safety net really mean for an organization, and how can it make the difference between surviving and thriving when challenges hit?

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KC Cares: On this Ask the Expert episode of KC Cares, we dive into those questions with one of the best in the field, Dr. Thomas Vansaghi, Managing Director of the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership at the University of Missouri, Kansas City.

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KC Cares: The center is devoted to helping nonprofits strengthen their leadership, improve performance, and amplify their impact through education, research, and service. Well, welcome, Dr. Benzagi! It’s great to have you here!

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Tom Vansaghi: Thanks, Ruth, it’s good to be back on KC Cares.

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KC Cares: Okay, rainy day funds. Let’s talk about… what are we talking about?

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Tom Vansaghi: Sure, well, it is, really a great topic, and I’m glad to have a chance to kind of talk a little bit about it. I think you’re absolutely right that

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Tom Vansaghi: Financial advisors and people in the finance field, of course, are always talking about

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Tom Vansaghi: putting… putting money away and, you know, having that available for future emergencies or issues. And, you know, just like us as individuals, a nonprofit should also strive for what would really technically be called a reserve fund. It’s also referred to as a rainy day fund or, you know, an emergency fund, but essentially what we’re thinking or talking about is,

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Tom Vansaghi: a savings account, or even better, an investment, you can put this money into an investment fund that could be accessible, you know, within a short period of time that a nonprofit could use, in any situation. Obviously.

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Tom Vansaghi: We’ve… we’ve had a few, situations just in the last few years with the…

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Tom Vansaghi: with the financial crisis back in 08, or the pandemic in 2021, and more recently, you know, we’ve had, you know, a lot of… a lot of changes with federal funding, and if you’re a nonprofit that has received federal funding, then that would certainly be something that you might need to lean on. And I can provide a lot of examples, but essentially we’re talking about a

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Tom Vansaghi: savings account that a nonprofit should be able to use, in, you know, in the event that their revenue streams, become compromised or limited, or there’s unexpected turbulence, along the way.

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KC Cares: Okay, so how does that differ, or maybe it’s the same as an endowment?

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Tom Vansaghi: Sure, yeah, I think an endowment and a rainy day fund or this type of thing is definitely… we’re talking really about the same kind of thing. An endowment, I think, is different from the standpoint of, it’s, it’s something that a nonprofit would put money away and only use the interest on that particular

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Tom Vansaghi: fund, which I think you could treat a rainy day fund or an investment, fund like that, but in some cases, you know, really the idea would be that you have enough money invested for, you know, 3 to 6 months of your operating expenses. So you should be able to access, you know.

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Tom Vansaghi: Big chunks of it, or all of it, in the event that, you know, you do have a constraint in your revenues.

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Tom Vansaghi: in whatever operational revenues, you know, you’re receiving, you know, whether it’s grant funding, or an event that you couldn’t have, or, you know, a particular donor, didn’t come through. So it’s really… an endowment, I think, is really structured around, you know, we’re only going to use the interest.

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Tom Vansaghi: to provide a scholarship, or we’re going to use the interest to support this particular position, where I think a rainy day fund is structured more to provide a large amount of money, you know, to replace your operational or your revenue streams that may have been compromised. Now, it would be great, I mean, I think, you know, an endowment or a fund like this could be used to help

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Tom Vansaghi: supplement your operations. Like, every year, you’re going to rely on a certain amount of money in your rainy day fund, a certain amount of interest that you’re going to put back into your operations, and so that would be another way to think about it as well. But I think it’s really important that, you know, most… most of the time with an endowment, you would never want to go into the principal, you’d never want to go into that.

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Tom Vansaghi: and take it for something or a need. But I think that’s what a rainy day fund is really there for. It’s to, you know, if you have a $300,000 fund, and you needed, you know, $100,000 to make payroll for a certain month.

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Tom Vansaghi: Then you should be able to take a third of it, in order to do that.

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KC Cares: So, you could use the interest off of an endowment, if you have an endowment, because I would guess that not all nonprofits do.

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KC Cares: And it sounds like endowment is more futuristic planning, whereas a rainy fund is like, it’s raining tomorrow. I need that money to be able to keep my organization maybe afloat in some ways.

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Tom Vansaghi: Right, yeah, yeah, so it’s definitely, there, and I, you know, I am a part-time executive director of a nonprofit, and, you know, we’ve…

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Tom Vansaghi: We have about a million dollars in what we call a reserve fund, and this particular year that we’re in, we had to take about $120,000, to help us with operating costs.

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Tom Vansaghi: For, for the current year. And, you know, that was not,

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Tom Vansaghi: anything that was in our, in our, planning. I mean, we just, we just found ourselves in a situation where we rely heavily on a conference, where we have people come to a conference, from

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Tom Vansaghi: really all over the world, and we know this year’s conference, is going to be, smaller, because people are concerned about, you know, from outside of the United States especially, they’re concerned about not being able to get into the country, or get out of the country, and so unfortunately…

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Tom Vansaghi: that’s had a very interesting effect on us, and so, you know, while we weren’t federally funded, we aren’t federally funded, we have been impacted by some of the, you know, some of the border security, and I think more, you know, people in Canada particularly, are fearful of traveling to the United States, which is really unfortunate. So for this particular year, our conference is supposed to be in Atlanta.

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Tom Vansaghi: And, and unfortunately, our conference attendance will probably be down about a third, which did result in a pretty large, you know, about a $300,000 deficit. We were able to reduce our expenditures by about half of that, and then we still needed another, like I said, about $120,000 to shore up the difference, and thankfully, we have that fund available.

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Tom Vansaghi: that we can just dip into this year, and it’s gonna be fine. Our operations and everything will be, you know, unaffected. We didn’t have to lay anybody off or let anybody go. Whereas if we didn’t have the rainy day fund, we would be in a situation where, you know, we would have had to probably let somebody go, or we’d had to have to make some pretty big

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Tom Vansaghi: changes, and so… and, you know, with a million dollar, fund, that’s almost a year’s worth of expenses for us. We’re about a million-dollar operation, so we are… we are really, in good shape, and probably are overfunded. We definitely should talk about, is… is too large of a rainy day fund to, you know, is it… is there such.

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KC Cares: Right.

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Tom Vansaghi: Too much money in your reserve fund.

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KC Cares: Well, we’ll get to that. I want to make this really beneficial for our viewers and listeners, so…

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KC Cares: Everybody should have a rainy day fund. Okay, how do I go about that? How do I decide to do that?

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KC Cares: start that.

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Tom Vansaghi: It’s hard, and I’ll tell you, you know, starting a fund like this is never easy, because it really, you know, and let me just start at the beginning, you know, the whole sector that we work in is called the nonprofit sector, and that does not mean that a

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Tom Vansaghi: Nonprofit or a charitable organization.

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Tom Vansaghi: can’t actually make a profit, and I think that’s, you know, I think a lot of people that don’t work in this space don’t understand that, but we can certainly, earn more revenue than we’re spending, and then that gives you a chance, you know, the best chance to really find money to put away. I think, you know, if you’re

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Tom Vansaghi: if you don’t have a rainy day fund, if you don’t have a reserve fund, it’s okay. I think this is a best practice. Not everybody, has the luxury of this, but I think it is a good long-term goal for all nonprofits, a strategic goal that could be in a long-term strategic plan, like a 3-year goal or a 5-year goal.

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Tom Vansaghi: to at least get something started, the rule of thumb is about 3 to 6 months of your operating budget, should be, you know, considered in your rainy day. That’s just a rule of thumb, that’s not a hard… there’s no, you know, IRS rule, there’s not any sort of accounting rule, you know, that’s just a good rule of thumb. So, 3 to 6 months of operating, you know, again, if you’re in a situation where you just need to cover payroll and operating costs.

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Tom Vansaghi: Then you have something to dip into.

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Tom Vansaghi: And, again, starting this, it’s difficult to find funders that want to give

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Tom Vansaghi: you know, a gift, you know, a charitable gift, an individual donation, or a corporate sponsorship, or a foundation grant, solely for the purposes of creating a rainy day fund. It’s just not sexy, it’s not something that

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Tom Vansaghi: excited about, you know? But…

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Tom Vansaghi: Again, I think it’s about how can your overtime, how can you structure your budget so you’re always earning more revenue than you’re spending, and even just incrementally putting away a little bit, you know, maybe a month, a year, you know, a month of operating expenses a year would be a reasonable goal, or a good goal. So within, you know, 3 years, you could actually have, 3 months of reserve funding, and so…

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Tom Vansaghi: Of course, you know, it’s easy to talk about this, you know, there’s never a time where nonprofits have enough money, there’s never a time where, you know, we have too many donors, and, you know, I mean, that happens, but it’s certainly an exception rather than the rule.

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KC Cares: That being said, what’s your best advice to

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KC Cares: begin something like this. You know, especially now, I mean, we’re in a situation where federal funds have been cut. I’m sure state and… if you have local funding, everybody’s looking very, you know, closely at budgets. Not that they didn’t before, but I think even more so now. So…

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KC Cares: What are those tips and advice as to how to make this happen?

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Tom Vansaghi: Yeah, again, I think I would just go back to, you know, really strategically, creating a budget, your annual budget, where you’re just not spending every, cent of your, of your operating fund. And so you, you know, you’re saying we’re going to set aside, you know, $10,000 or $20,000,

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Tom Vansaghi: In this particular budget year, we’re gonna, you know.

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Tom Vansaghi: earn that revenue through, you know, maybe an entrepreneurial source of funds. I mean, I always use the Girl Scouts as a great example. Girl Scout cookie sales. I mean, that’s, you know, if you can find something that you can, you know, monetize, sell, you know, provide some value to individuals that they’re willing to pay for. And I think that’s really truly one of the most opportunistic or

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Tom Vansaghi: or best ways for nonprofits, I think, at this particular moment in time, you know, to really look at diversifying revenue, instead of just going to the same donors or the same foundations.

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Tom Vansaghi: or state and federal funds, but to really find these more creative ways of raising revenue. And so I think if you can come up with some of those types of revenue streams, that would be a really good way to maybe add or increase your revenues in a particular year, or over a particular series of years.

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Tom Vansaghi: to really get that started. Now, you know, you might find a donor, you know, especially if you’re talking about an endowment, you know, really restricting the funding. You know, there would be donors that I think would be really interested in that, to set up something to, in perpetuity.

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Tom Vansaghi: we want to create a pool of funds that the nonprofit can use to draw on, to operate on. I know that I just had a conversation yesterday with

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Tom Vansaghi: somebody who used to work at Union Station here in Kansas City, and, I know that they sold… I didn’t realize this, but Washington Park used to be owned by Union Station. They sold that property and actually have used that funding to start, an endowment fund for just to… just to help.

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KC Cares: Oh, wow.

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Tom Vansaghi: with their operating budget. And so, you know, most nonprofits don’t have that kind of asset. They don’t have a large chunk of land or anything like that, but, you know, you never know. I mean, I used to work at William Jewell College. I taught

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Tom Vansaghi: there for many years, and I think back in the 1930s, a donor literally gave the college, oil wells. I mean, literally oil wells.

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Tom Vansaghi: in Texas, and, you know, that’s a… that was a pretty lucrative investment that I know the college had had for a long time, and

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Tom Vansaghi: talked about selling it, you know, but just making money off of those oil wells. So you never know, you know, donors might not leave you money or cash, but it may be, you know, real estate or a piece of property that you could monetize and then put that money into a fund like this.

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Tom Vansaghi: But I will say, it’s just… it’s never easy, because we’re always, you know, most nonprofits are operating, you know, they’re scrappy, they’re just making, you know, making it work, month to month, day to day, year to year, and having the, the luxury of actually having enough money to put money into the bank is…

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Tom Vansaghi: It’s a tough ask. And so, you know, most of the time, a nonprofit that’s

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Tom Vansaghi: in the earlier stages of its evolution as a startup, or in a growth mode, wouldn’t probably have the ability to do this, so it’s really a nonprofit that reaches that mature phase, and

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Tom Vansaghi: They’re earning enough revenue to pay for all their employees and operate their programs, and then they can really start to think about doing this long term.

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KC Cares: I want to dive into the idea of revenue. Of course, I think we’re… donor gifts and those things are revenue, but…

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KC Cares: the creative side of that. Do you have some examples of some local nonprofits that have been able to do that, and

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KC Cares: Maybe use that as their rainy day fund impetus?

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Tom Vansaghi: Yeah, I won’t name the specific nonprofits, but I do know of several examples of nonprofits who… they’re, they’re really focused on, you know, putting… helping people find employment, go back to work, helping them with training. You know, there’s some really cool ways of creating, opportunities where employ… where clients are.

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Tom Vansaghi: Working in a place that’s actually, you know, like a coffee shop, you know, a nonprofit that opens a coffee shop, and the employees that are there are working there, they’re making the drinks and serving

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Tom Vansaghi: working in the kitchen, and then, you know, the coffee shop is actually turning some sort of profit that’s giving money back to, giving money back to the, giving money back to the operations of the nonprofit. I’ve also seen it done… I’m a beekeeper, and, I love any stories where nonprofits are using, honey, and production of honey, and all of the…

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Tom Vansaghi: sort of the byproducts that come with that, but teaching people about how to be, beekeepers and, you know, maintaining them, you know, keeping the bees, and then, of course, the honey that’s produced off of the bees, and then even some of the other types of wax and other products that you can make, beauty care products. I mean, you know, and I know that there’s organizations, I know

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Tom Vansaghi: in Chicago that, that are, that are doing that as well. And so, you know, I think it’s, it’s really about, you know, in order to avoid, you know.

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Tom Vansaghi: taxes by the IRS, you know, you do have to do this work within your mission, so it is important. I’ve always.

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KC Cares: He’s got…

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Tom Vansaghi: with, how do the Girl Scouts justify selling Girl Scout cookies? I mean, how do cookies and the mission of Girl Scouts connect? And I’ve been told over and over again by leaders in that organization that Girl Scout cookies and selling those helps teach, you know, young women about entrepreneurship and, you know.

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KC Cares: Right.

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Tom Vansaghi: business, and, so I, you know, I can see that, and I think that that makes a lot of, a lot of sense. But if an organization just wanted to open up a quick trip, you know, the IRS…

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Tom Vansaghi: The IRS would want to tax that, and so, so the… it’s important as you’re exploring these, these social ventures that the… that the mission and the work that you’re doing does complement or create this sense of, you know, we’re training employees, we’re providing opportunities for our clients, through these.

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Tom Vansaghi: Through these means of also producing, producing revenue.

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KC Cares: You bring up a very good point with taxation and all of that. So, as a leader of a nonprofit is thinking through this, etc, who should they be consulting with to make sure that they don’t get themselves in a whole heap of trouble and the bees attack the hive? We’ll stay with the bee alliteration.

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Tom Vansaghi: Okay, well, there’s a couple of dimensions that I think a nonprofit should be thoughtful about. First, I think, you know, your accountants, you know, whoever does your, does your books, your accounting, could… could really help with, with this space a little bit, in terms of what are the rules that the IRS, you know, provides, and, you know, what’s permissible in terms of revenue streams

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Tom Vansaghi: you know, to keep you from actually paying, it’s called, unrelated business, income. So, unrelated business income tax, or UBIT, is what the IRS deems as, this is revenue that’s produced that doesn’t fit with your mission, it’s outside of your mission, and it really is

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Tom Vansaghi: taxable, and so I think, you know, either as somebody familiar with the rules at the IRS, always, you know, consulting with attorneys is good, and this is where, you know, again, we could touch… there’s so many ways that all of these topics intertwine, but talking about boards and governance, this is a great reason why we need to see

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Tom Vansaghi: Attorneys on boards, people that are experts…

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KC Cares: Or it’s in a.

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Tom Vansaghi: accounting or revenue, you know, certainly in the, you know, accounting, you know, having an accountant on your board is important, and, you know, so you don’t have to pay for these things, but these are people that, you know, are willing to, you know, they sit on your board, they’re willing to lean in and provide advice.

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Tom Vansaghi: to the nonprofit, and so… so I think an attorney or a… or a, an accountant would be able to provide that kind of information to any nonprofit leader as they’re exploring these different types of…

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Tom Vansaghi: revenue streams.

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KC Cares: We’re talking with Dr. Thomas Van Sagi. He is the Managing Director of the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership, a great resource for information. Just throw that out there.

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KC Cares: We also have to talk about some issues like trust and confidence. Let’s discuss that a little bit as we look at rainy day funds as the main…

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KC Cares: Meantime.

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Tom Vansaghi: Yeah, no, I… you know, a nonprofit that has a reserve fund.

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Tom Vansaghi: is going to be viewed as an organization that’s operating well. There’s going to be a higher regard for, you know, anybody who’s considering making a gift or a donation, whether it’s a foundation, a corporation, and certainly individuals. They’re going to feel like, wow, this is an organization that’s well-managed.

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Tom Vansaghi: They have thought about what-ifs, and they are an organization that I have a higher degree of trust, and I feel like it’s a safer investment. I think, you know, we should think about donors as investors, and, you know, nobody wants to make a donation

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Tom Vansaghi: to a nonprofit that’s circling the drain, and that’s a really mean thing to say, but if you’re an organization that’s barely surviving and, you know, you’re running on fumes, you know, unfortunately, you know, there are… even though that’s an organization that needs, you know, donors to come to the aid and provide the support, unfortunately, that doesn’t really provide a lot of confidence to

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Tom Vansaghi: a donor, but an organization on the opposite side of that, that is well-managed and can say, yes, we have a 6-month reserve fund, that certainly provides a really good indication that the organization is well-managed, it’s well-governed, and they’re really trying to do everything correctly. And so, you know, and I think, again, you know, how are the

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Tom Vansaghi: what kind of policies does the nonprofit have, and how it can use its reserves? You know, clearly, you know, it should be very strictly,

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Tom Vansaghi: focused on, on, you know, maintaining the operations. All of it should be mission-aligned and mission-focused, and it, you know, it can’t be just for, like, a vent… like, a corporation might have a venture capitalist, fund, you know, it’s like, this.

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KC Cares: this week.

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Tom Vansaghi: Experimenting, or doing crazy.

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KC Cares: Easy.

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Tom Vansaghi: ideas, and again, you know, not… most nonprofits don’t have that luxury. Foundations can do some of that experimentation by funding particular projects, but a nonprofit doesn’t have that kind of risk ability with their funding, and I don’t know how donors would feel about that. Now, maybe a donor would be like, yes, I want to invest in that, I want to provide funding

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Tom Vansaghi: to start something really new and interesting. That’s a lot sexier than starting an endowment, but most owners, I think, are much more inclined to want to contribute to a nonprofit that’s well-run, well-managed, and they know is going to be around, not just in a year, but in 100 years.

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KC Cares: Do you have any thoughts on whether a rainy day fund needs to sit at a bank or a credit union? I mean.

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Tom Vansaghi: Give us a little of that financial…

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Tom Vansaghi: Yeah, no, that’s a good question. No, absolutely. You know, it should be, you know, ideally, maybe a short-term investment opportunity that you’re actually getting a better return than a savings account. For years, savings accounts had zero interest. I mean, when I was a little kid, I remember getting

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Tom Vansaghi: a little extra money that I would earn in a little savings account with my allowance.

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KC Cares: Right.

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Tom Vansaghi: first jobs that I had, but in more recent years, with interest rates so low, savings accounts didn’t really pay any dividends. So a savings account at a minimum, but I think it’s important to know that your money is available, that it’s not something that’s tied up in an investment fund that is not accessible. Again, because I think that, you know, a rainy day fund is there to provide support for the organization

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Tom Vansaghi: when something unexpected happens, when there is something that occurs that… and maybe it’s a problem with an air conditioning system, or an operational situation where, you know, you just have to, you know, we’ve had too many people come to our summer camp, we have to hire extra people. I mean, maybe it’s a good thing that you just need a little bit of extra.

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KC Cares: Right.

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Tom Vansaghi: spending, you know, more of a cash flow situation, just to get you through one month to the next. So if it’s…

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Tom Vansaghi: If it’s all locked down in long-term investments, then obviously it can be very difficult to access it, so it does need to be accessible, and I’m not a financial expert, but I think any kind of an investing… investment person could help separate out the types of funds that would provide some return, but also be fairly easy to get to. And again, an endowment is something

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Tom Vansaghi: that’s pretty much, locked up in a investment account that’s only, only focused on the, on the, on the revenue stream that’s created from the, from the interest.

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KC Cares: Maybe it’s, you know, talking with your own bank as the nonprofit, just to say, we know this is something we should do, how can you help us? How can you make this possible, aside from our regular operating accounts? You know, certainly I would hope that your bank could help you out there.

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KC Cares: Is there a way to approach donors with the idea of, we want to create this, because times are so uncertain. We want to do this as good stewardship for our organization, even though you don’t maybe need to replace that freezer in your food pantry.

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Tom Vansaghi: No, absolutely. I mean, you could treat it like a capital campaign, where you’re saying, you know, we want to raise a million dollars that we’re going to just put away in a rainy day fund. And so, you know, again, not every donor will get very excited about that, but there are many that will, and I think you mentioned,

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Tom Vansaghi: you know, bank… banking institutions, they’re… I’m just amazed at… I have conversations every day with nonprofit leaders.

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Tom Vansaghi: And they describe these elaborate capital campaigns with

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Tom Vansaghi: Tax credits and different ways of invest, you know, kind of private investing

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Tom Vansaghi: opportunities that can be pooled together to, provide resources for, you know, a building project or a large, you know, piece of equipment or something. You know, absolutely, I think that you could look at, you know, if you’re really thinking this is something we need to do, we need to make it a big deal, absolutely, I think you could devise, a fundraising strategy just to build an endowment, just to build a

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Tom Vansaghi: A reserve fund, if that’s something that,

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Tom Vansaghi: that I think, you know, that the organization deems a priority. You know, as you know, you know, we’re in a moment right now where the federal government is really pretty severely restricting funding to the nonprofit sector, and so, you know, it’s… I don’t know if this is the right moment to go out and ask donors for that. I just know a lot of donors are being asked to just help nonprofits.

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Tom Vansaghi: You know, with their operating expenses, with the

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Tom Vansaghi: are enduring, and so… but, you know, that doesn’t mean there are lots of nonprofits in Kansas City at this moment who are, you know, exploring and launching

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Tom Vansaghi: capital campaigns, and, you know, that doesn’t… it’s not gonna stop them from doing that, just because of the… just because of the climate. You know, there will always be donors who want to, you know, provide funds to support something… something like this.

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KC Cares: Well, and we saw it during COVID, when you had a huge step up from even in our own community, between United Way, the Greater Kansas City Community Foundation.

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KC Cares: There were a couple of other foundations that created the big fund that then they were able to distribute from, but let’s not wish for that to come back. We have just a moment or two left. What shouldn’t

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KC Cares: We do.

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Tom Vansaghi: So, one of the things that’s interesting about a Rainy Day Fund is that just, you know, creating one is amazing, it’s absolutely best practice. I would encourage every nonprofit to do it, but there is such a thing as the rainy day fund being too big, and that’s really.

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KC Cares: a security.

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Tom Vansaghi: where, you know, we have, as I mentioned earlier, I happen to provide, you know, leadership to a nonprofit, and, you know, we had about 12 months of reserves. I mean, that’s probably bordering on maybe a little too much, and donors, or in our case, we have members that join this organization.

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Tom Vansaghi: they might challenge the executive director or the board and say, why aren’t you putting that money to work? Why aren’t you, you know, reducing fees to our participants in the conference, or why don’t you provide more scholarships, or whatever it is that you do. I think it’s a good challenge. It’s like, there is such a thing as too much. You know, it’s you’re putting too much money

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Tom Vansaghi: into, into your, into your rainy day fund, and, and donors might get a little, testy about that. I’m not gonna donate. You guys have, you guys have this giant, pot of money. And, you know, you can look at, you know, I know that, like, Harvard University is.

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KC Cares: Right.

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Tom Vansaghi: So easy to pick on. They have billions and billions of dollars.

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KC Cares: Right.

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Tom Vansaghi: in their endowments, and it’s great, but if you’re an alum of Harvard, why, you know, you might be scratching your head and saying, why would I want to give to Harvard? They have so much money, you know, and so I think it’s an important… just an important question, that you should… you shouldn’t just strive to have as much money stockpiled as you can, because I think there are legitimate questions about, you know, shouldn’t you take that and

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Tom Vansaghi: Use it for the mission that you’re here to provide.

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KC Cares: Dr. Van Sagi, as usual, you give us great advice. Give the website for the center so folks can check out all the other things you can give advice on.

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Tom Vansaghi: I don’t have it at all.

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KC Cares: That’s okay, I believe it’s at UNKC. It’s the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership. Go Google it, everybody, you’ll be able to find it. Thank you so much for being our expert.

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Tom Vansaghi: You’re very welcome, thanks for having me back.

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KC Cares: This KC Cares segment was brought to you by the Ewing Marion Kaufman Foundation, www.coffman.org. Now, if you want to be a guest, or to learn anything about us, you can go to our website, kccaresOnline.org, and spread the love. You’ll find us on Facebook and Twitter at KC Cares Radio, and on Instagram at kccaresOnline. And don’t forget, Saturday mornings at 8 a.m.

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KC Cares: You can catch us at ESPN 1510 a.m. and 95… 94.5 FM. Thanks for joining us!

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KC Cares: I’m KC Cares.

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KC Cares: Bobby might be able to edit that out. I’m so sorry.

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KC Cares: That’s okay. You guys do not have an easy URL. It’s like, it’s UMKC backslash da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. So, sorry.

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Tom Vansaghi: I don’t even know. I should know it, and I don’t. I was totally.

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KC Cares: Well…

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Tom Vansaghi: What the hell?

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KC Cares: No, I’m down, I didn’t want to embarrass you, so I’m so sorry.

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Tom Vansaghi: That’s okay.

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KC Cares: Next steps. Bobbi, what do you think are next steps in terms of,

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KC Cares: putting something together for Tom for this conference. Do you… I can put some thoughts on paper, or Tom, if there are some things, or if you want us just to say.

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KC Cares: Shoot it at me, and we’ll look at it, and…

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KC Cares: Yeah.

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KC Cares: Yeah, I think.

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Tom Vansaghi: From my perspective, I mean, this… you guys have totally, like.

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KC Cares: got me thinking. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I think I’d love to see what are some options that…

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KC Cares: I’ll just… I’ll just put together a list, generally what I will be due for other, you know, other businesses or other events like this, and… Yeah. It’s kind of like I was… you just gotta, yeah, tell you… tell us what interests you and how you,

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KC Cares: how you want to promote it. I mean, it’s… there’s so much you could do. It’s… it can be pre-promotion, event, and then post-promotion, or we

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KC Cares: to come out and do the event. And, you know, there’s so many different variables, and if you have an editing team, or a team that you guys.

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Tom Vansaghi: We don’t, yeah.

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KC Cares: They don’t have anything.

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KC Cares: Sorry.

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KC Cares: We got nothing. Okay.

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KC Cares: Yeah, because some of this stuff, one of the things I’m heavy into is automation and AI, and crossing that with technology and creativity. So, being able to… I have platforms that you can use to

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KC Cares: just throw, you know, videos in a folder, and it’ll kind of line them up for you. It’ll even analyze them, and then transcribe them, and then create Chrome. It’s… so we can, you know, depending on, you know, what your… what needs you, you know, what needs you have, and.

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Tom Vansaghi: Okay.

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KC Cares: You know, we can… we can always cater stuff, and…

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Tom Vansaghi: Yeah, yeah, no, that sounds great.

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KC Cares: I…

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KC Cares: And I think you’re saying, Tom, too, throw some ideas at you, because you hadn’t even thought about this. I mean, I thought about it, and the other thing is, you’ve got a panel… your lunch panel is some really big players. It would be fun, and if we could even… KC Cares could use and take some bites of this, you know, promoting you, and say, brought to you by KC Cares, or however we do it.

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Tom Vansaghi: I would love it.

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KC Cares: I mean, that would be great, because then we can shoot that out on Instagram, you can shoot it out on your social media.

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Tom Vansaghi: Right, right. Yes, we have somebody who does some social media for us, and so we.

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KC Cares: Park?

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Tom Vansaghi: Well, Mark, but we have somebody that’s with the… it’s called Executive Education at UMKC, they kind of share the same office space, and we’re sort of sharing somebody who does their communications, but she doesn’t do any video or anything like this, so this is not something…

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KC Cares: Bobby’s magic, he’s got all the tools, he’s got… I love it.

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Tom Vansaghi: Yeah. Is it anime?

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KC Cares: Animation King. I would say… Animation and IA.

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KC Cares: I love it.

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Tom Vansaghi: Yeah, and I think any, any of the content…

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KC Cares: Excuse me.

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Tom Vansaghi: you would want to use? I don’t… I mean, you know, I see us as just a public good and trying to provide.

 

Previous Episodes!

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays shares how a single act of service after a tornado sparked a national nonprofit movement. Learn how Operation BBQ Relief feeds not just stomachs, but souls—during disaster and beyond.

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson, the Kansas City Chiefs’ all-time leading tackler, has carried his drive from the field into philanthropy. In this KC Cares interview, he shares how his Defend the Dream Foundation transforms school libraries in low-income communities, giving kids access to age-appropriate books and bright, inviting spaces to read. He also discusses his new children’s book, Super DJ Saves Field Day, co-written with his wife, which encourages kids to discover their inner strength and values.

Earl Phalen on Leadership in Social Entrepreneurship

Earl Phalen | Founder and CEO

Earl Phalen, the visionary behind Great Jobs KC and Phalen Leadership Academies, joins KC Cares to discuss his leadership journey in social entrepreneurship. His new book, From Vision to Impact, captures lessons learned over decades of experience, including his approach to uniting passion with solid business practices. Phalen explains how nonprofit leaders can create a mission-driven organization by setting clear goals, establishing KPIs, and fostering resilient teams. With insights on adapting to change, he highlights the importance of innovation for nonprofits in Kansas City and beyond. This interview is essential for nonprofit leaders eager to improve their strategies and drive greater impact.

 

What Nonprofit Questions are Answered?

  1. Why is business acumen important for nonprofit leaders?
    Ans: Business skills allow nonprofit leaders to scale impact by managing finances, fundraising, and operations efficiently.
  2. What does it mean to lead a social enterprise?
    Ans: Social enterprises use business principles to drive social impact, balancing financial sustainability with mission-based goals.
  3. How can nonprofit leaders build effective teams?
    Ans: Setting clear goals, hiring aligned team members, and fostering a collaborative environment are key.
  4. What role does change play in nonprofit success?
    Ans: Change allows organizations to innovate and stay relevant, driving greater impact for the communities they serve.
  5. How does clear goal-setting benefit nonprofits?
    Ans:Setting specific, measurable goals ensures that nonprofits can track progress, make adjustments, and achieve their mission.

Find us on

Facebook:@ Kccaresradio

Twitter: @kccaresradio

Instagram: @Kccaresonline

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Also available on

Itunes || Spotify || Stitcher || Soundcloud || Youtube 

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

KC Cares, Kansas City’s nonprofit voice, tells the stories of Kansas City nonprofits and connects them with the community.  

Produced by Charitable Communications 

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

In partnership with: 

Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation

Take risks. Own success. Be Uncommon.

TW: @kauffmanfdn FB: @kauffmanfdn IG: @kauffmanfdn

Transcript:

Previous Episodes!

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays shares how a single act of service after a tornado sparked a national nonprofit movement. Learn how Operation BBQ Relief feeds not just stomachs, but souls—during disaster and beyond.

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson, the Kansas City Chiefs’ all-time leading tackler, has carried his drive from the field into philanthropy. In this KC Cares interview, he shares how his Defend the Dream Foundation transforms school libraries in low-income communities, giving kids access to age-appropriate books and bright, inviting spaces to read. He also discusses his new children’s book, Super DJ Saves Field Day, co-written with his wife, which encourages kids to discover their inner strength and values.

Election Impact on Nonprofits: Expert Fundraising Tips

Jeffrey Byrne | Byrne & Pelofsky

Jeffrey Byrne, a fundraising expert from Byrne Pelofsky, discusses how election cycles impact nonprofit fundraising in this insightful KC Cares interview. Byrne dispels the misconception that political contributions drastically reduce charitable donations, citing that most donors give to both charities and political campaigns. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining consistent communication with donors and implementing advanced technology to streamline outreach. Byrne also encourages nonprofits to participate in public advocacy by engaging with political candidates and officials to promote their missions. With a strategic approach, nonprofits can capitalize on opportunities and continue successful fundraising, especially as they prepare for the crucial year-end giving season.

 

What Nonprofit Questions are Answered?

  1. How do elections affect nonprofit fundraising efforts?
  2. Can nonprofits engage in political advocacy during elections?
  3. What are the best strategies for nonprofit fundraising during election cycles?
  4. Do donors prioritize political donations over charitable giving?
  5. How can nonprofits prepare for year-end giving during an election year?

Find us on

Facebook:@ Kccaresradio

Twitter: @kccaresradio

Instagram: @Kccaresonline

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Also available on

Itunes || Spotify || Stitcher || Soundcloud || Youtube 

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

KC Cares, Kansas City’s nonprofit voice, tells the stories of Kansas City nonprofits and connects them with the community.  

Produced by Charitable Communications 

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

In partnership with: 

Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation

Take risks. Own success. Be Uncommon.

TW: @kauffmanfdn FB: @kauffmanfdn IG: @kauffmanfdn

Transcript:

Previous Episodes!

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays shares how a single act of service after a tornado sparked a national nonprofit movement. Learn how Operation BBQ Relief feeds not just stomachs, but souls—during disaster and beyond.

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson, the Kansas City Chiefs’ all-time leading tackler, has carried his drive from the field into philanthropy. In this KC Cares interview, he shares how his Defend the Dream Foundation transforms school libraries in low-income communities, giving kids access to age-appropriate books and bright, inviting spaces to read. He also discusses his new children’s book, Super DJ Saves Field Day, co-written with his wife, which encourages kids to discover their inner strength and values.

Demystifying Grants: A Deep Dive with Mike Chamberlain from the Grant Professionals Association

Mike Chamberlain | Nonprofit Expert

In an insightful KC Cares interview, Mike Chamberlain of the Grant Professionals Association sheds light on the crucial aspects of grantmaking and the pivotal role of grant professionals. He discusses the competitive nature of grants, the necessity for ethical practices, and the evolving trends in grantmaking that impact nonprofit organizations. Chamberlain emphasizes the value of community among grant professionals and the essential resources and educational opportunities provided by the Grant Professionals Association. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone involved in the nonprofit sector, offering key strategies for securing grants, building relationships with grant makers, and understanding the responsibilities that come with grant funding. Chamberlain’s expertise demystifies the grant process, providing a roadmap for nonprofits to effectively leverage grants to further their missions.

 

5 Frequently Asked Questions

  1. What community service activities do the Chiefs cheerleaders participate in?
    Ans: The cheerleaders engage in various activities, including partnerships with Ronald McDonald House and the My Cause My Cleats event.
  2. How did Taylor and Jordan become Chiefs cheerleaders?
    Ans: Both shared their unique journeys to the team, emphasizing passion, commitment, and personal backgrounds.
  3. What are the responsibilities of the Chiefs cheerleaders beyond cheering at games?
    Ans: Apart from performing at games, they are involved in rigorous training, community service, and internal team committees.
  4. How do the Chiefs cheerleaders contribute to community engagement?
    Ans: They actively participate in outreach programs and partner with various organizations to impact the Kansas City community positively.
  5. What inspired the creation of committees within the cheerleading team?
    Ans: The a need for a structured approach to handle various aspects of their role, including community service and enhancing football knowledge.

Find us on

Facebook:@ Kccaresradio

Twitter: @kccaresradio

Instagram: @Kccaresonline

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Also available on

Itunes || Spotify || Stitcher || Soundcloud || Youtube 

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

KC Cares, Kansas City’s nonprofit voice, tells the stories of Kansas City nonprofits and connects them with the community.  

Produced by Charitable Communications 

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

In partnership with: 

Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation

Take risks. Own success. Be Uncommon.

TW: @kauffmanfdn FB: @kauffmanfdn IG: @kauffmanfdn

Transcript:

Previous Episodes!

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays shares how a single act of service after a tornado sparked a national nonprofit movement. Learn how Operation BBQ Relief feeds not just stomachs, but souls—during disaster and beyond.

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson, the Kansas City Chiefs’ all-time leading tackler, has carried his drive from the field into philanthropy. In this KC Cares interview, he shares how his Defend the Dream Foundation transforms school libraries in low-income communities, giving kids access to age-appropriate books and bright, inviting spaces to read. He also discusses his new children’s book, Super DJ Saves Field Day, co-written with his wife, which encourages kids to discover their inner strength and values.

Empowerment and Community Impact: A New Era at the Kauffman Foundation

DeAngela Burns-Wallace | CEO

Dive into the heart of strategic philanthropy with the Kauffman Foundation’s new vision under Dr. DeAngela Burns-Wallace. Balancing a rich legacy with forward-thinking strategies, the Foundation is entering a pivotal phase of strategic planning, prioritizing community involvement and needs. Focusing on education and entrepreneurship, Dr. Burns-Wallace aims to dismantle systemic barriers and foster equitable opportunities, particularly for underrepresented communities. This new chapter signifies a commitment to innovation and impactful philanthropy, aimed at driving sustainable economic growth and empowering communities.

visit them here: kauffman.org

 

What Nonprofit Questions are Answered?

  1. What is the current focus of the Kauffman Foundation under Dr. Burns-Wallace’s leadership?
  2. How is the Kauffman Foundation involving communities in its strategic planning process?
  3. What legacy does the Kauffman Foundation carry, and how is it shaping its future strategies?
  4. In what ways does the Kauffman Foundation aim to create equitable opportunities for underrepresented communities?
  5. How is Dr. Burns-Wallace’s diverse background influencing her approach to leadership at the Kauffman Foundation?

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KC Cares, Kansas City’s nonprofit voice, tells the stories of Kansas City nonprofits and connects them with the community.  

Produced by Charitable Communications 

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Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation

Take risks. Own success. Be Uncommon.

TW: @kauffmanfdn FB: @kauffmanfdn IG: @kauffmanfdn

Transcript:

Welcome to KC Cares. We’re Kansas City’s nonprofit voice, and we’re telling the stories of Kansas City nonprofits and the people behind them. KC Cares is the intersection of the nonprofit and profit communities making Kansas City about a place to live, work and play.

00:00:35:04 – 00:01:11:21
Ruth Baum Bigus
This KC Care segment is brought to you by the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. www dot Kauffman dot org. My name is Ruth Baum Bigus. he Kauffman Foundation is a shining star in the philanthropic constellation across the country and probably around the world. Founded in 1966 by Ewing, Marion Kauffman, noted entrepreneur and humanitarian today, the foundation is focused on preparing people for success in their jobs so that everyone has the opportunity to achieve, prosper and do well.

00:01:11:23 – 00:01:45:15
Ruth Baum Bigus
While the foundation is grounded in principles of racial equality, diversity and inclusion, all aspirations of its founder, the Kauffman Foundation, is more than 2.5 billion in assets that invest in the most important projects and organizations focused on people and building practical and workable solutions to today’s challenges. Today, the foundation has a new leader at the helm. It’s Angela Burns Wallace, whose resume is packed with incredible experiences and accomplishments, including stints in state government, the Foreign Service and higher education.

00:01:45:17 – 00:02:14:09
Ruth Baum Bigus
She’s won numerous prestigious awards as well as served and serves on various boards. A lifelong student and a higher education advocate, Dr. Burns Wallace holds degrees from Stanford, Princeton and the University of Pennsylvania, as well as a faculty appointment at the University of Southern California. Dr. Burns Wallace is more than her resumé. She’s a Kansas City native, a working mom and a daughter of older adult parents.

00:02:14:11 – 00:02:22:13
Ruth Baum Bigus
For this ask the Expert episode, we’re so delighted to welcome Dr. Burns. WALLACE Thank you so much for being here.

00:02:22:15 – 00:02:28:10
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Thank you so much for having me. I am excited to be a part of this conversation today.

00:02:28:12 – 00:02:46:03
Ruth Baum Bigus
Well, we would think that everybody knows what the Kauffman Foundation is all about and what somebody in charge does. But I thought it’d be a good place to start to talk a little bit about what your responsibilities are for, you know, helming this auspicious organization.

00:02:46:05 – 00:03:23:08
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So like any other president and CEO, you spend your time handling meetings and meetings and meetings, but in a good way. The work of this foundation and the Kauffman Foundation is really about empowering communities, about being in places, in spaces where we are working to break down systemic barriers, where we are working to help communities with solutions so that they have the power to control their economic stability, their economic prosperity and growth.

00:03:23:10 – 00:03:49:13
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And so our investments over time, particularly over the last few years in education and entrepreneurship in this region and also around the world has really been about how do we help ensure that more people have access to opportunities that allowed them to have that control over their own economic future through that sitting at the helm of the organization?

00:03:49:18 – 00:04:42:17
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
It means that particularly right now, that it’s about us being in line with the communities that we serve, that we’re able to understand and match those needs of that community with the investments that we have with the research and the learning that we do with the convenings that we host and that we bring into various conversations. So my role on a day to day is to listen, is to learn, is to ensure that we are in collaboration, in partnership, in community, to be able to help those that need that access, need to be able to access those opportunities that historically there have been barriers to equitable access.

00:04:42:19 – 00:05:19:16
Ruth Baum Bigus
Gosh, I think back, you know, 1966 when Mr. Kay started this journey, and you would think by now we would made these great strides and great leaps, which we have to some extent, but still so much work to be done. What can you share at this point? What is the state of the Kauffman Foundation and under your leadership, what kind of priorities focus points are out there for you?

00:05:19:18 – 00:05:49:03
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So I would say that we but also around the nation, in conversations around access and opportunity and economic prosperity, I don’t see that going away for us. I think it is part of the priorities. If we think back to Mr. Kay and the work that he wanted to happen around the country, he said in some of his remarks that we would find solutions to tough issues here in Kansas City and to be a model for the nation.

00:05:49:05 – 00:06:18:24
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And we continue to work with our community partners, whether it is peers, funders, nonprofit organizations, those on the, you know, the civic side, our our public sector partners, educational partners to understand the circumstances and issues in our community and then again, to solution around them. Right now, that’s a part of the work that we’re doing. We are in as many organizations go through when you change leadership, a strategic planning phase.

00:06:19:01 – 00:06:39:09
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And so like any other leadership change, when you have that, it actually creates an opportunity for you to refine the work. And for us, we have a beautiful legacy of the investment in the work that we’ve done in and around the community and around the nation. And in this moment, it allows us to better understand that legacy and its impact.

00:06:39:11 – 00:07:05:08
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
It allows us to kind of stand on that legacy. But the beauty of, you know, doing strategic planning for your organization is that you don’t have to be constrained by that legacy. It informs it helps you think about. But our work and thinking about what does this work need to evolve into in the next 5 to 7 years to continue to meet the needs of the communities that we serve?

00:07:05:10 – 00:07:16:02
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
That for us in this moment is what strategic planning is all about, and it allows us to refine our funding priorities coming out of this work.

00:07:16:04 – 00:07:19:15
Ruth Baum Bigus
Where are you in that process?

00:07:19:17 – 00:07:41:24
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So we are kind of chugging along. What I will say is, is that we are close. Our hope is that as we move through our strategic planning, that we are able in the near future to talk about what those priorities are. And again, we are grounded in education and entrepreneurship in the work that we have invested in over the last few years.

00:07:42:03 – 00:08:06:13
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And we know that that will continue to be a part of that of the work that we do going forward. But the question is, what does that work look like from a future lens, not kind of a backwards lens. So we are just kind of thinking about our own horizon of in that this spring we’re in a place in space where we will be able to talk about what those strategic priorities are going forward.

00:08:06:15 – 00:08:17:05
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Looking to set a 2030 vision for the work that helps to drive our direction, and we’ll be excited to share that coming soon.

00:08:17:07 – 00:08:38:00
Ruth Baum Bigus
Well, we we can’t wait to share what you do as well. That’s kind of be invigorating to come into an organization, as you say, is is built on a legacy of a man who has become was larger than life in life. And I think is even larger. You know, after that, anybody who met Mr. Kay, I think, would agree with that.

00:08:38:02 – 00:08:55:03
Ruth Baum Bigus
But how fun to get in there And like, dabble Dream kind of, you know. And so are you bringing lots of folks to the table? Is this an exercise of board and staff? How does it work?

00:08:55:05 – 00:09:23:23
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
It is an exercise with an in partnership community. So we have over the last few months, spent time in various communities with partners, bringing them to the table, asking them in different ways. And so we as I started in this role, we did an open house where we opened the doors of the foundation and welcomed over 300 partners to an evening of just celebration.

00:09:24:03 – 00:09:45:07
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And that night, even we launched a survey asking them, as we start to think about our strategic planning, what are some of the priorities? Where do we need to align, where do we need to be careful? But then we built on that and we then pulled together key stakeholders in the community at various levels all throughout the Greater Kansas City region and a few of our national partners.

00:09:45:10 – 00:10:07:21
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And we asked them similar questions, going a little bit deeper. Right? We started to talk about, you know, where is this work? Where’s our work been? Where does it need to go, How does that fit with the work that you’re doing and your strategic priorities and alignment and how can we support and how does it along? So those voices have all been a part of shaping the work as we go forward, but also our team.

00:10:07:23 – 00:10:32:24
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And so we have an amazing, dedicated group of associates that work at the foundation, and they have also been integral in this work. Sometimes when you do strategic planning and as someone who was a strategic planner would come into other organizations and do this work with them. A lot of times you start at the leadership team, right? You take that CEO and their executive team and you put them in the room and they’re like, All right, what are your priorities and how do we want to structure it?

00:10:33:03 – 00:10:56:20
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Then you roll it down to the team and say, okay, here’s the priorities. Like what do you all think and how do we tweak them? We didn’t do that. We put all 80 plus. We are around about 84 associates in a room together. And we kicked off our strategic planning process together with all of us starting to design and to think about what should be these headlines that we’re working toward.

00:10:56:24 – 00:11:16:18
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
What what, who are the communities that we want to ensure that we are serving? What are the outcomes and impacts that we want to see in this work as we move forward? And every single member of our foundation staff was in the room as we started that conversation. Then we did the same thing with the board, took them through the similar exercises, right?

00:11:16:18 – 00:11:37:21
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So it has been a wonderful journey to see the evolution of this work and to hear and to work with people who have said to me, as we are getting further along and starting to test some of our ideas and and make sure we’re going back to those and say, okay, do you hear yourself in the work that that’s coming out of this?

00:11:38:00 – 00:11:56:11
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
You know, as we starting to shape some of our goals and levers, are you hearing what you put in? And to hear people tell us internally and externally, I see myself and I see what what I gave as something that was taken into consideration. It means that we’re on the right path. We still have a ways to go, right?

00:11:56:13 – 00:12:30:14
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
But that idea that we’ve built a process where people have felt that they have been able to give really good feedback and insight and that we are truly echoing that back and how we are crafting. Again, still testing some things, still making sure that we have that alignment. But it is good to hear along the way from various stakeholders, internal and external, that they believe that our process even has ensured that that various voices are being taken into consideration.

00:12:30:16 – 00:12:56:04
Ruth Baum Bigus
I’m so excited now to hear all about this and how how validating for your associates to know that they are not just sitting there waiting for things to come trickling down, but a percolate percolate up. I want to switch for a minute and and take you and our our audience to what I was able to learn. We’re talking with Angela Burns Wallace.

00:12:56:04 – 00:13:30:12
Ruth Baum Bigus
She is the CEO, the woman in charge at the Kauffman Foundation. And from personal observation, very vivacious and exciting. And I want you to know that I have my sparkly tennis shoes on. This lady has got style. At any rate, I want to talk about leadership. You did a presentation for the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership, and there were four areas that you spoke about about that I thought were just really enlightening for those people in the room.

00:13:30:12 – 00:13:44:14
Ruth Baum Bigus
And I wondered if you might you might share those for and I could go and give everybody a sneak peek. It was be kind, be ready, be great, be intentional. Yeah. And how that became your your package of leadership.

00:13:44:16 – 00:14:04:08
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Yeah. So for me, you know, when we do this work and when I do this work, you know, my career has always been in public service. So I am a public servant from day one, and I bring that with me as I move into this space. So, you know, this philanthropic space, because I believe that our work is in service as well.

00:14:04:13 – 00:14:39:11
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Right. And but irrespective, there is something about for me, leaders that we really can shape how our organizations move, how we are motivated or unmotivated, the impact that we have. And I love being able to join, you know, the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership’s event, because I love when we take the time to be one of my BS, be intentional about thinking about our own leadership, Right?

00:14:39:13 – 00:15:01:12
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
I see that it’s really important that we have to create capacity and space to be intentional. I start with the end and work my way back because we are our best selves when we give ourselves that grace and space to be creative, right? We are our best selves when we have the time to think deeply and thoughtfully about the work that we do.

00:15:01:18 – 00:15:17:15
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And if we get caught up in the day to day operations of just moving things over and over and over, we are not bringing our best selves to our leadership. And that means we’re not our best selves for our teams, which then our teams can’t be the best selves for those that they serve and what they are trying to deliver, Right?

00:15:17:17 – 00:15:43:19
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So when we talk about be intentional, particularly as a leader, being intentional about your time, your space, how you move, how you show up, what you share can be a true game changer because you never know who is looking at you, watching you as a motto, listening to you, being inspired by you.

00:15:43:21 – 00:16:19:03
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Leaders that I have worked under and I’ve learned so well from are those who didn’t do it well, because you learn what you don’t want to do right and who you don’t want to be in those moments. Right. So be intentional with something that is really, really near and dear to me being kind. Going back to that beginning of that list, the way that we show up and being kind, being human, being authentic, being real in our spaces is really, really important.

00:16:19:05 – 00:16:48:10
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
As leaders, we set the tone of how we move to and three spaces how our teams feel about the work that they do, those that we serve. And so it does not take much to be kind, but it is one of the most powerful things a leader can be in terms of how they show up and how they engage both with peers, with their teams and with those that they serve.

00:16:48:12 – 00:17:20:06
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And it really has tremendous impact to the work. Right. Be ready is is something that I love because I do believe as we do this work, being ready just means that we are positioning ourselves always to be ready for the opportunity that we’ve done, the work that we challenge ourselves, that we have invested in team members, and that next level of leadership so that they’re ready to take advantage of the opportunities that are available.

00:17:20:07 – 00:17:43:14
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Right. And so this concept of being ready is something that really is a way that as leaders, we should walk ready for the opportunity, ready for the partnership, ready for the challenges, ready to engage. But to do that, you got to prepare, right? You you have to make sure that you are putting yourself in places and spaces where you’re learning, where you’re being challenged, where you’re growing.

00:17:43:19 – 00:18:08:21
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
You can’t just be ready overnight. You have to put in the work. And as a leader, that can sometimes be a challenge for us because we have to create space, begin to invest even in ourselves, and be intentional investing in that next level of leader so that when I talk about be ready, it’s about us as an individual, but also our organizations, right?

00:18:08:23 – 00:18:42:07
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And if we’re not ready, our organizations can’t be ready. And if we haven’t done the work, our organizations can’t be ready and then that be great. It can be be great. It could be be bold, right? Like showing up in the work with a manner of just excellence. Right? This idea that we are going to do good work and that we take up space because we are ready to lead and engage in lean in and that we can sometimes be bigger than our dreams.

00:18:42:09 – 00:19:11:15
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And the important piece of that is not about us, but when we are bigger than the dreams, because we are in service, it means we are dreaming big for the communities that we serve. It means that we are calling new and innovative ideas and creative ways to deliver, to serve, to create space and solutions for those who we are trying to serve, and that those that our work has the most impact on.

00:19:11:17 – 00:19:32:11
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So we have to be great because when we are great, it means that we are having a deeper level of impact. The greatness is not about us as individuals. It’s about how we do the work, how we show up. So I hearkened it that morning to the Beatitudes, right? So that these are ways in which you live your life.

00:19:32:11 – 00:19:51:13
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
These are ways in which you show up. And people, lenders stand how you move to and through. And as a leader, we need to take time to make sure that we are thinking about how we lead because it truly impacts what we do and those that we serve.

00:19:51:15 – 00:19:53:01
Ruth Baum Bigus
I’m ready.

00:19:53:03 – 00:19:54:07
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Let’s go.

00:19:54:09 – 00:20:21:16
Ruth Baum Bigus
I’m ready. I I’m so grateful that you shared that because I think it’s something that can translate to any nonprofit, any organization of any size. And I and I love how earlier you used the word grace and allowing ourselves some grace, you know, to not be necessarily great every day all the time, but finding some space to be able to kind of sit and live in that.

00:20:21:16 – 00:20:25:03
Ruth Baum Bigus
So thank you so much for that.

00:20:25:05 – 00:20:49:20
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
You know, I’m is one of those things, Grace is my word. And people know intentional and grace like those are things that like, just sit with me. But Grace is necessary. It’s necessary for us as leaders. It’s necessary that we give it. It’s also necessary that we receive it in the work that we do. And it is something that I think that we don’t have enough of right now in our society.

00:20:49:23 – 00:20:54:00
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
But it makes boy, that it really, really does.

00:20:54:02 – 00:21:06:14
Ruth Baum Bigus
That is that is for sure. Yeah. The foundation’s website, I think, has a lot of language that talks about opportunity, equity, community.

00:21:06:16 – 00:21:07:24
DeAngela Burns-Wallace

00:21:08:01 – 00:21:14:14
Ruth Baum Bigus
Can you share with us a little bit of the importance of those and and how they intersect?

00:21:14:16 – 00:21:38:13
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So what I will say is that part of that harkens back to Mr. K, right? When he talked about the work on the foundation, he specifically talked about the work being that we were looking for solutions, that we were working to take down systemic barriers for those that traditionally that those barriers blocked their access, blocked their opportunities, or that their ability.

00:21:38:17 – 00:22:26:06
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So when we use that language, it’s an important piece of kind of a nod and a recognition that our work is not just about kind of overall economic prosperity in the greater good, but it is about gap closing. It is about, you know, creating equitable spaces. It is about looking at systemic, you know, structures and policies and, you know, conversations and ensuring that we are working to invest and to find solutions and to convene conversations that help us better understand and and to dismantle, you know, some of those pieces that systemically have created barriers or created siloed lanes where, you know, okay, this group of individuals can access this set of resources, but not this

00:22:26:06 – 00:22:57:15
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
set of resources, right? So those words I think we use them opportunity, equity, community in different types of ways. But it’s the idea of the concept that the work that we are doing is about how do you increase these amplified, newly identified opportunities for communities that you know from an equitable lens over time have not had an equitable access to those types of opportunities.

00:22:57:17 – 00:23:41:04
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And then that means those communities are ones in which we serve, that a lot of our work is targeted on that we are looking for partners that do that work, that impact those communities so that we are, again being a part of the solutions to break down those barriers. It’s not necessarily like us doing the work always in community, but it’s it’s and I say that because our work, a lot of our work is us investing right in it’s investing in other entities because those other entities are the ones who are in those communities that are removing barriers on a day to day basis right there in those communities that are working and standing alongside

00:23:41:08 – 00:24:21:15
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
those that know what that community needs and are that again, we play a role sometimes of amplify, right? Of right. Doubling down into an entity that we know is going to have a certain type of deep impact in a particular community, in a particular space, a particular group of individuals or a sector like a lot of the work that we’ve done in the entrepreneurship sector, like knowing that business ownership creation, profitability, sustainability and having that in the hands of the communities that traditionally haven’t had access to capital or the starting of entrepreneur, you know that those business spaces and places, right?

00:24:21:19 – 00:24:32:09
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
That is that through line of when you talk about opportunity and equity and community, that’s when it comes together in a beautiful way.

00:24:32:11 – 00:24:53:15
Ruth Baum Bigus
I have so many questions and so little time. We’re going to have to have you back. This is a tremendous job. You have a tremendous resumé. How do you how are you pulling from past experience to inform current and future experience.

00:24:53:17 – 00:25:29:10
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Every day and three times a day? Right. You know, I I’ve had a career where I have been in federal government, state government, higher education. I’ve served on numerous boards and commissions and with organizations and still do in various capacities. What I will say is and and let’s not forget, I am born and raised from this community, grew up on 67.

00:25:29:12 – 00:25:52:11
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
That is also a piece of what helps inform the work that I do. It’s all of my lived experiences, but every day what I try to do is I think about the lessons I’ve learned, whether it’s in making the connections and understanding those connections and how I leverage them into the work and how we framework to understanding communities.

00:25:52:13 – 00:26:40:02
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
I have lived and worked all over the world and being a diplomat for a part of my career. You live and work in other countries and you sit in different places in your life, right? So every every day I work to make sure that I’m pushing myself to say, Am I bringing my own or am I ensuring that I am listening to my perspectives as we think about the work, but also my work in the public sector across my career has been about tackling issues and looking at how you allocate resources and whether those are dollars.

00:26:40:02 – 00:26:59:23
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
It might be policy, it might be technical assistance, it might be capacity building like that’s the type of work I’ve done in various different environments. And it is a synergy to the work that we do in different ways in that we fund into. So when I say I tap into my past work, like every day, I mean it.

00:27:00:01 – 00:27:27:24
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And then sometimes I literally tap into it in that I will pick up my phone and text someone and say, Hey, we are thinking about such and such. You know anybody who’s doing that? Is there some research we need to look into? There’s somebody I should call and that that text can span from that colleague who is sitting at the, you know, Department of Defense right now as an assistant secretary and say bring work to a really close friend who has been my best friend since seventh grade.

00:27:28:02 – 00:27:49:20
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
But she is a senior leader in health care here in Kansas City right now today, and transforming work over at St Luke’s Hospital. Right. So but it runs the gamut of of all of those lived experiences that I try to leverage into the work that we want to get done for the betterment of the community.

00:27:49:22 – 00:28:12:16
Ruth Baum Bigus
Well, I say Kansas City is so lucky, first of all, to have you as a native daughter. Second of all, to have you at the helm of the Kauffman Foundation and I think is a real transitory time in society in general. So we are so grateful and grateful that there’s a listener there which is just wonderful. So thank you for spending time with us.

00:28:12:18 – 00:28:49:18
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
Thank you for having me and welcome the opportunity to come back. I will say, particularly for your population, I just if I can do one quick kind of shout out in there that people may not realize, but this is the 25th anniversary of our building and the opening of the conference center. And so I am trying to take every opportunity that we can to remind, particularly the nonprofit community, if you are a501 C3, you know that our conference center is free for you to hold meetings.

00:28:49:20 – 00:29:18:13
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And if you have, you know, of course your food and beverage is something that we cover covered and cost, but that is also something we try to keep at a reasonable level so that that is not a barrier. But I want to highlight it. After 25 years when that facility was created, it was specifically and very intentionally as a tool for the convening of our nonprofit community so that they had a space that they thought was their own to do their work where they didn’t have to pay for it.

00:29:18:19 – 00:29:43:23
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
And so we want to continue to that celebration of what that tool is into the work. So I say to those who are listening of the KC nonprofit community, just remember that the Conference Center, the Kauffman Conference Center is your home and a place that, you know, we hope that you will use to convene to me small meetings, big meetings.

00:29:43:23 – 00:30:13:15
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
I mean, we have multiple rooms. You can do a very small group of like your board or a small conversation or you can, you know, book out the very large room where you can have 250, 300 individuals as part of a conversation. But just please know, check us out because it is a tool that we we are we are finally getting close to our pre pandemic levels, but we’re still not there, which lets us know there is still more need in the community for that utilization of space.

00:30:13:20 – 00:30:19:02
DeAngela Burns-Wallace
So please think of us as a home and a tool for the community.

00:30:19:04 – 00:30:43:10
Ruth Baum Bigus
We’re happy to let you plug away on that. Thank you to the Kauffman Foundation and to check out information on it. It’s W WW dot Coffman dot org and you can spread the love and find us on Facebook and Twitter at KC Cares Radio and on Instagram at KC Cares online. Don’t forget Saturday mornings you can catch us at 8 a.m. on ESPN, 15:10 a.m. and 94.5 FM.

00:30:43:16 – 00:30:46:17
Ruth Baum Bigus
Thank you for joining us on KC Cares.

Previous Episodes!

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays Operation BBQ Relief

Stan Hays shares how a single act of service after a tornado sparked a national nonprofit movement. Learn how Operation BBQ Relief feeds not just stomachs, but souls—during disaster and beyond.

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Derrick Johnson Empowering Youth Through Education and Literacy

Derrick Johnson, the Kansas City Chiefs’ all-time leading tackler, has carried his drive from the field into philanthropy. In this KC Cares interview, he shares how his Defend the Dream Foundation transforms school libraries in low-income communities, giving kids access to age-appropriate books and bright, inviting spaces to read. He also discusses his new children’s book, Super DJ Saves Field Day, co-written with his wife, which encourages kids to discover their inner strength and values.

Exploring Followership with Elizabeth Ireland: Insights for Nonprofit Success

Elizabeth Ireland | Assoc Director of Training

Elizabeth Ireland, Director of Training at the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership, discusses the crucial yet often overlooked concept of followership in nonprofit organizations in her interview with KC Cares. She explains the evolution of followership, distinguishing between role-based and social process perspectives. Ireland highlights key traits of effective followers, including autonomy, high standards, and a purpose-driven approach, which are vital for nonprofit success. She also delves into the interplay between leadership and followership, emphasizing how effective followership contributes to positive organizational dynamics. This interview provides valuable insights for nonprofits looking to strengthen their team dynamics and achieve greater mission impact by recognizing and nurturing effective followership.

visit them here: https://info.umkc.edu/centers/mcnl/

 

What Nonprofit Questions Are Answered?

1. What is followership and why is it important in nonprofits?
Ans:- The interview answers this by defining followership and its significance in shaping organizational success, particularly in the nonprofit sector.

2. How has the concept of followership evolved over time?
Ans:- Elizabeth Ireland explains the historical context and evolution of followership in leadership studies.

3. What are the characteristics of an effective follower in a nonprofit organization?
Ans:- The discussion focuses on key traits such as autonomy, high standards, and purpose-driven nature.

4. How does followership impact leadership and organizational dynamics?
Ans:- The interview explores the relationship between leadership and followership, highlighting its impact on organizational outcomes.

5. Can understanding followership improve nonprofit management and team dynamics?
Ans:- Insights from the interview suggest how embracing followership can enhance management and team dynamics in nonprofits.

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Transcript:

00:00:02:21 – 00:00:17:15
Ruth
Welcome to KC Cares, Kansas City’s nonprofit voice. We’re telling the stories of Kansas City nonprofits and the people behind them. Casey Cares is that intersection of the nonprofit and profit communities making Kansas City a better place to live, work and play?

00:00:17:18 – 00:00:44:12
Ruth
This KC Cares segment is brought to you by the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. www dot Kauffman dot org. I’m Ruth Baum Bigus leadership is the ability of an individual or a group of people to influence and guide followers or members of an organization, society or team. Well, that sounds so simple. Yet there are so many things involved with leadership on this.

00:00:44:12 – 00:01:06:01
Ruth
Ask the expert episode. We’re exploring the concept involving leadership that may be new to some of us. It’s called followership. Here to explore followership is someone who has been studying it for some time. We welcome Elizabeth Ireland, who is the director of training at the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership at the Henry Bloch School of Business at the University of Missouri, Kansas City.

00:01:06:03 – 00:01:15:06
Ruth
Elizabeth recently presented a session on this topic as part of the center’s Leadership Conference. Well, welcome, Elizabeth. I feel we’re ready to dive into followership.

00:01:15:08 – 00:01:18:15
Elizabeth
Thank you for having me. I’m very excited.

00:01:18:17 – 00:01:28:19
Ruth
All right. We got to start at a base, right? So what is followership? And when did this term arise?

00:01:28:22 – 00:01:50:03
Elizabeth
Yeah. So I think it’s really a good spot to start at, like defining how we generally think about followership or how it’s been relayed to us in the literature. And so there tend to be two different camps that followership falls into. And the first is a role based, and that one emerged first. And then the second one is this social process.

00:01:50:03 – 00:02:20:17
Elizabeth
Camp And so role based really is this idea that individuals enact their followership based on having a formal or even an informal role or position. In this case, we talk about organizations, but it could really be in various different aspects of their social life. The other side is a social process camp and that says that it’s socially constructed and that it’s more relational between leaders and followers.

00:02:20:19 – 00:02:33:12
Elizabeth
And there tends to be a little bit more flexibility in who is considered the leader and who is considered the follower. And they’re able to kind of switch back and forth based on the context.

00:02:33:15 – 00:02:45:25
Ruth
How did this a science, this this new area of thought under the umbrella of leadership even come into being? How did folks just kind of dive into this?

00:02:46:02 – 00:03:15:29
Elizabeth
Yeah, because we’re so heavily focused on leadership all the time. That’s a really great question. So as you know, for much of our leadership studies, it’s really been focused on the leader themselves, right? Their traits, their behaviors, their characteristics. Are they charismatic? Are they intelligent? Are they tall? Believe it or not, that was one. But then as it shifted forward, there was always some conversation of followers inside the literature.

00:03:16:02 – 00:03:53:07
Elizabeth
So they were regarded differently depending on the perspective. So somewhere around the mid eighties, towards the end of the eighties, Robert Kelley put out a article called In Praise of Followers in the Harvard Business Review. And that really sparked this emergence of followership and talking about what it means to be a follower, what it means to be an effective follower inside organization, and really began to say, Hey, we have been thinking about followers for weight or leaders for way too long, and it’s time that we actually start giving some attention to followers and giving them the credit that they deserve.

00:03:53:07 – 00:04:17:03
Elizabeth
Because more often than not, we’re going to serve and a follower role rather than in a leadership role. And so we really do need to focus on followers. It’s also a role based approach. His approach is model and then moving forward into the mid-nineties, Eric, Caleb said, Hey, this is a really great idea. And he kind of built that out a little further, though he looks at it slightly different.

00:04:17:05 – 00:04:44:05
Elizabeth
He looks at whether or not followers are supportive of leaders and of their organizations, but also this idea that they need to be really courageous, which means they need to stand up for their leaders, but they also need to be able to stand up to their leaders. We move a little bit forward. We have Barbara Kellerman in 2008 and she actually kind of says, hey, let’s pare this way back and just look at one dimension of being a follower.

00:04:44:05 – 00:05:09:08
Elizabeth
And so she looks at just that engagement piece, and she says that followers really are individuals that don’t necessarily have power or influence. So they may have some degree of authority. Beyond that, we start shifting into those more social process perspectives, which says, you know, this really is a process where leaders and followers are agreeing to be that identity, right?

00:05:09:08 – 00:05:29:20
Elizabeth
In some instances, I’m a leader and in some instances I’m a follower. And if I choose to be a follower, then that means I’m granting you the ability to be the leader. And we have this more code constructed or co-produced. Look at what it means to be a leader and what it means to be a follower.

00:05:29:22 – 00:05:31:17
Ruth
That’s a lot to unpack.

00:05:31:19 – 00:05:32:29
Elizabeth
If you know, where.

00:05:32:29 – 00:06:03:10
Ruth
Do we start? So I like that you had mentioned, I think sometimes people feel if I’m a follower, you know, the Chiefs, the Indians and the Indians are just slogging through the mud. You know, Carrie hitting the packages while the leader is upfront. Charismatic. Yeah, but as you describe this, the father really has a very important role to play in organizations.

00:06:03:16 – 00:06:13:23
Ruth
Let’s talk about that a little bit. What are those characteristics or what are those commonality that followers should have to be? Good followers, I guess.

00:06:13:25 – 00:06:34:22
Elizabeth
That’s a really great place to start. So I tend to, when I’m explaining this or I’m talking to individuals for the first time, because first off, most people are like, what is followership and why are we talking about followers? I tend to have them start with those role based approaches, and Robert Kelly’s is usually the first one I introduce just because it is familiar.

00:06:34:22 – 00:06:55:15
Elizabeth
Whether or not we realize it, we understand what these follower types are because we’ve seen them in organizations, we’ve seen them in our social lives, we’ve seen them on movies and TV, right? So they are kind of familiar to us. And so he looks at followership in terms of whether or not there is engagement and whether or not there’s critical thinking.

00:06:55:22 – 00:07:23:05
Elizabeth
And so to Robert Kelly, he says that, you know, really effective followers, which is what we should all strive to be, are individuals who are able to manage themselves well so they’re able to do their work with a high degree of autonomy. And in fact, they absolutely need that in order to do their best work. They’re also individuals that have really high standards, and so they’re not necessarily looking to get the job done quickly with a lower quality product.

00:07:23:05 – 00:07:47:16
Elizabeth
So they’re going to really have those high standards and strive to do the absolute best for the organization. They’re also individuals who are purpose driven, and so they have this strong need to have to support someone other than themselves, which makes it a really natural fit for the nonprofit context. Because, you know, we all seem to be purpose driven in this work.

00:07:47:16 – 00:08:09:15
Elizabeth
And so it’s just a really good connector because we’re already kind of bought into that piece. Initially, individuals who are effective followers also really work on building their confidence. So they’re going to be those lifetime learners. If they don’t know something, they’re going to go out and be self-motivated and want to learn it, because again, they have really high standards and they want to do what’s best for the organization.

00:08:09:17 – 00:08:30:24
Elizabeth
And they’re also going to focus their efforts for maximum impact, which means that they know what their strengths are and they play to their strengths. Although there are certainly opportunities to grow in the areas that we’re less strong in, they know how to make the most impact inside their organization. And then finally, they are individuals that are courageous, right?

00:08:30:24 – 00:08:54:22
Elizabeth
So they’re willing to stand up to their leader when they need to. And we use leader loosely there. Right. So it could be all kinds of different individuals, especially in the nonprofit context. They’re also really honest. Right. So they’re going to be authentic and they’re going to kind of tell you like it is, although they’re definitely tactful and because they are honest and because they are authentic, they are viewed as being more credible.

00:08:54:24 – 00:09:01:06
Elizabeth
And so they tend to be experts inside their organizations or inside their field.

00:09:01:08 – 00:09:04:22
Ruth
And you be a bad follower. Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:04:23 – 00:09:29:10
Elizabeth
You can definitely be a bad follower. And that kind of brings us into this idea of, you know, how do we think about ourselves as a follower? How do we think of others as followers and these ideas and sort of conceptions of what it means to be a follower are things that we started early in our life, and we’ve kind of just built them as we got it, and now we’re bringing them into our organizations.

00:09:29:10 – 00:09:49:07
Elizabeth
So for some, you know, being a bad follower means that they’re really passive, so they’re not engaged in the work. They just come in, they do the bare minimum and, you know, they get their paycheck and they’re just really not looking to make any waves. But they’re also not making any great impact because, you know, again, they’re very passive.

00:09:49:09 – 00:10:10:05
Elizabeth
Others might be alienated followers. And so the interesting piece there is that you could actually be a really effective follower. But if there’s a miss or a misalignment between leaders and followers, and that could also include how leaders think individuals should follow, because for some leaders, they have this more hierarchical view. And so they think that you should be passive, right?

00:10:10:05 – 00:10:32:10
Elizabeth
You should be obedient. And we definitely don’t want that inside organizations because that’s not how we grow and thrive. So if you were an effective follower, there’s that miss that you might actually slip into being alienated, which just means that you’re really critical of the leader, but it also means that you’re more likely to look at looking for another job.

00:10:32:10 – 00:11:06:20
Elizabeth
And so that turnover and tension grows within you. But there are also just individuals that refuse to follow, and that’s just kind of their conception of it. And they they just want to be a leader and so they will not follow anyone. So yes, there are bad followers, but I hope with more education and more intentionality behind strengthening who we are as followers, but also as leaders strengthening who others are as followers and letting them have more leadership opportunities, We can kind of help resolve some of that.

00:11:06:23 – 00:11:36:05
Ruth
I remember sitting in your presentation, which was so interesting and such a diverse group of people in the room. So when we did group work, it was interesting. You could kind of tell what kinds of organizations and what role people played and if it was working well in terms of leaders and followers. At any rate, how much does personality and who you are playing to, what kind of a follower you may be?

00:11:36:07 – 00:11:39:00
Ruth
Yeah, that’s absolutely fair.

00:11:39:02 – 00:12:03:23
Elizabeth
So it’s kind of a multi pronged approach, right? So we need to understand what is our quote unquote native follower style, although it’s a spectrum and we shift in that. But we also have to compare that with, you know, are we an introvert or are we an extrovert also? How do you what are those implicit feelings that we have towards leadership and who leaders should be and what makes a good leader?

00:12:03:25 – 00:12:24:08
Elizabeth
All of that, our willingness to speak up, but also providing opportunities for people to speak up. It all plays a part in to creating a more effective followers, but personality is definitely an aspect to it, just as it is with leadership.

00:12:24:10 – 00:12:48:17
Ruth
Okay, you get that that Debbie Downer or David Downer in there, Is there is there a way to ask the leader, let’s say work with those followers to raise up and try to mitigate that, maybe how they learn to be a follower?

00:12:48:19 – 00:13:26:09
Elizabeth
Yes. And they need a lot of support from you as a leader. They also need a lot of peer modeling. And so for person, they may have that perspective because they’ve had other leaders in the past that have said, you need to be obedient and you need to be passive because that’s the conception that they had. And so you may actually just need to show them a different way, but it does take a lot of time because you’re going to have to build that trust first, to create that safe space for them to be able to challenge or to even get them engaged enough to the point where they’re wanting to take on more challenging

00:13:26:09 – 00:13:48:16
Elizabeth
task and kind of grow that sense of autonomy. So yes, you can improve them. It just takes a lot of work. But there are also other perspectives that look at it that are kind of more from that engagement piece. And they say, you know, this is how you more strategically move individuals along that follower spectrum. And a lot of that means you have to get important to the purpose of the organization.

00:13:48:18 – 00:14:08:15
Elizabeth
You had to build those relationships among peers and then also with the leaders and just model the way for them so that they know that they can kind of grow in this way. And hopefully it improves, although again, there are some of those individuals that are just never going to follow. And so we don’t always need people to challenge.

00:14:08:15 – 00:14:29:25
Elizabeth
Sometimes we just have people to come in and do the work. And so that’s fine when they get more disruptive or they’re constantly challenging a leader or they’re really confrontational, that’s where you kind of have to start working those more performance management pieces to either help them get them on board or get them to a different opportunity, if you will.

00:14:29:28 – 00:14:59:29
Ruth
You mentioned a big five letter word, I think trust. Yeah. Sounds like that is absolutely key in in being a follower and being the leader in being a follower, is trust something that can be challenged or inspired, perhaps so that you play the game, as it were?

00:15:00:01 – 00:15:25:10
Elizabeth
Yeah, I think you could definitely look at it from your perspective. So first off, trust underpins everything that we do in that organization. So individuals have followers, if you will, who trust their leader, are going to have higher performance, they’re going to have less turnover and hence they’re going to have greater satisfaction and commitment to the organization. So there’s all of these really great benefits that come from building trust.

00:15:25:13 – 00:15:51:29
Elizabeth
But if you are an effective follower and you’re willing to challenge a leader and you have a leader who maybe is less than ethical or maybe you see that the organization is going in a direction that they shouldn’t go in and the follower in the leader shut you down on that. That is going to erode your sense of trust that might actually propel you from going from effectiveness, like being an effective follower to being an alienated follower.

00:15:52:02 – 00:16:08:04
Elizabeth
And then you’re going to start again looking at that turnover intent or having a higher sense of burnout, whereas you have that drive to kind of push through. Now things are kind of you’re feeling the effects of it more because the relationship between the leader and you is strained.

00:16:08:06 – 00:16:19:10
Ruth
You’ve been studying this a while and when you look at leadership, do leaders need to have been followers?

00:16:19:13 – 00:16:22:15
Elizabeth
Yes, Yes, absolutely. Be the.

00:16:22:15 – 00:16:22:26
Ruth
Best.

00:16:22:26 – 00:16:43:09
Elizabeth
Leaders are individuals who are really effective followers. And it’s funny because if you look at the different traits and characteristics and behaviors of followers, they mirror that of leadership. It’s just that you look at it from more of a partnership perspective or like we’re working together. And in this instance, I’m the leader. And in that instance I’m the follower.

00:16:43:12 – 00:16:59:29
Elizabeth
Instead of this like command and control style that says I’m always the leader, you need to be passive and obedient and just be a yes person and do your job. And so, yes, the really great leaders are also really great followers.

00:17:00:01 – 00:17:22:13
Ruth
We had a colleague of yours on the show a few months ago, Tom Van Saki, talking about Founder’s Syndrome. So I’m wondering, you know, in that founder’s syndrome, do they have a missing gap of followership where maybe they you know, they’ve never been the follower? You know, they’ve always been the leader.

00:17:22:15 – 00:17:42:16
Elizabeth
Yeah. And then, you know, it’s a very complicated issue there. There’s a lot of emotions and feelings around that. But if they are the type of leader that doesn’t like, again, to be challenged, right, that sort of wants to have everything rubber stamped by the board or rubber stamped by the staff, they’re going to be really used to that.

00:17:42:16 – 00:18:02:04
Elizabeth
And that’s going to be hard to let go and to kind of look at leadership from a different perspective and kind of say, hey, I’m going to bring this person on in order to have a succession plan. But we’re really we’re going to be partners letting go of that leadership piece, if that’s a really strong piece of their identity, is going to be really hard for them.

00:18:02:06 – 00:18:16:25
Ruth
You mentioned a few moments ago to another word that kind of stuck out with me is that’s partnership is is that key to be a good follower in the whole dynamic, you know, of an organization?

00:18:16:27 – 00:18:42:06
Elizabeth
Yeah, I would say that there’s a time and place, right? There’s a context and situation for both leading and following, but that the most effective forms tend to be those that are more of a partnership where they’re treated more not necessarily as equals, right? Their supervisors and their subordinates, even though we don’t love that word, followers. So there is a hierarchy there.

00:18:42:06 – 00:18:59:00
Elizabeth
But from that social process angle, they’re partners, right? They’re creating leadership and followership together because it’s what’s in the best interest of the organization, and it helps them achieve their mission in a more effective way.

00:18:59:02 – 00:19:23:01
Ruth
We’re talking with Elizabeth Ireland. She’s the associate director of training at the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership, and she is the guru on followership. Our organization’s talking about this. Is this something now that nonprofits, when they, you know, take time to to look at how they’re run? Are folks talking about this and are they embracing it?

00:19:23:03 – 00:19:45:13
Elizabeth
I think that they are talking about issues related to followership and followers. So they may not be looking at it from an academic followership lens. Right. They may not actually know that’s what they’re doing, but they’re certainly talking about the issues at hand. One of the things that we need to do a little bit better as an academic community is include followership.

00:19:45:13 – 00:20:13:03
Elizabeth
And with our leadership coursework, I have been through or leadership classes than I can count. And I think I only heard the word followership once in all of that time, although I certainly use for all of my projects and every speech I did in class. But within organizations, we just need to start talking about it a little bit more, in particular with the nonprofit organization and nonprofit sector.

00:20:13:05 – 00:20:46:09
Elizabeth
So in general, Followership Lags Leadership studies, right? We go to Barnes and Noble or another bookstore. We’re going to see far more books on leadership than we are on followership. And if we look even, we kind of select out even more and look at just the nonprofit sector. We’re going to find far less information out there about what it means to be an effective follower inside nonprofit organizations, which is the reason why I’m specifically looking at that with my dissertation, because there’s a need to have a sense of what it means to be a follower.

00:20:46:09 – 00:20:57:26
Elizabeth
And followership looks like, and all of those behaviors, expressions and characteristics. But that’s grounded inside the unique context of nonprofit organizations.

00:20:57:28 – 00:21:23:12
Ruth
It would seem to me if you don’t have followers, then you’re not going to move the needle forward towards your mission and I know that sounds very basic, but and I think there’s something unique I’d love to hear you address as a nonprofit. Hopefully has staff or whatever followers that are part of it. But then you have volunteers and you’re driven by boards.

00:21:23:12 – 00:21:33:13
Ruth
So how does followership play into that and how do you infiltrate in a good sense to get those folks on board?

00:21:33:16 – 00:22:02:05
Elizabeth
Yeah, So it’s not actually that basic a place to start because while we tend to think that we fix some of those issues with, you know, command and control and authoritative leadership, right? They pop up in organizations of all types and of all sizes because we’re just humans and we bring with us what we think of leadership should look like in terms of looking at specifically like segmenting out what it looks like with your staff.

00:22:02:08 – 00:22:18:09
Elizabeth
Again, you would start with Robert Kelly, Eric Taylor and just kind of look through and assess what kinds of followers you have amongst your staff. How do they naturally lean? What do they think of being a follower? You can just ask them, what does it mean to be a leader and what does it mean to be a follower?

00:22:18:11 – 00:22:39:12
Elizabeth
And that gives you a really good idea at how they approach leadership and how they approach followership. But when we look at how we have relationships with board members, there really is a need to have that sense of shared leadership. And so for that, we really need to lean and heavily towards those social process approaches that says, you know, we’re in this together.

00:22:39:15 – 00:23:05:01
Elizabeth
And again, we’re claiming the role of or the identity of leader or we’re claiming the role of our identity a follower and we’re, you know, working together towards that common purpose or that common goal. If we look at volunteer management, we are we may not need our volunteers to do a ton of critical thinking. We may not need them to challenge the leadership or, you know, challenge others inside the organization.

00:23:05:01 – 00:23:26:16
Elizabeth
We may just need them to show up and be engaged in the work that we do and be, you know, a supportive element inside our organizations. And so for that, I tend to recommend individuals look towards Barbara Kellerman’s model of followership so that they can just look at that engagement piece, right? How do we move people from that very beginning?

00:23:26:16 – 00:23:53:05
Elizabeth
Like I’m not even necessarily familiar with the organization to where they’re an activist or a diehard for the organization, although diehards can go either way, right? They could be resolved through organization or they could just you know, they could be yes. People because they’re so bought into it that they they can’t necessarily see the impact of what they’re doing if it’s not necessarily ethical or beneficial to the organization.

00:23:53:08 – 00:24:16:18
Ruth
How do you keep followers from that tipping point, as you mentioned, of being so gung ho that they think they can run it all that and I guess sabotage leadership? That’s a pretty hard word. But how do you navigate it? What is what does it say in the literature and academic circles?

00:24:16:21 – 00:24:35:18
Elizabeth
I think it’s more like the gut level of what you do there. And it’s it’s you got to look at them as a human being and just say, you know what? What are the quality of interactions that I’m having with this person? Right? Do I have positive interactions? Are they always or mostly negative interactions? How do I build the relationship again?

00:24:35:18 – 00:25:02:11
Elizabeth
So they have to be really mindful and intentional of how they respond to you as a leader and how supportive they are of you. But it also means that you may need to think about what your own conceptualization of followers are, because if you’re having a lot of individuals that are, you know, pushing back constantly, it may be that you have a different view of what follower should be than what they do.

00:25:02:19 – 00:25:27:04
Elizabeth
And so the more we can educate individuals on, first off, what followership is and all of the different types and models and ways in which you can use that to your benefit, the more we’re able to say have those tools and resources that we need when we have individuals that we may need to move, you know, advance them in that followership spectrum so that they’re more effective for the organization.

00:25:27:07 – 00:25:47:01
Elizabeth
But it’s also knowing that if we’ve gotten to the point where we’ve tried all of these things and we’ve tried to build that relationship and it’s just not working, how do we leverage those performance management tools or how do we encourage them to maybe find something that’s more fulfilling for them so that they’re less likely to be alienated.

00:25:47:03 – 00:26:01:24
Ruth
Or be a roadblock or any number of things that can cause trouble? In your studies, have you seen is corporate America embracing this versus nonprofit? Is it about the same that everybody’s getting to the this is worth looking at?

00:26:01:26 – 00:26:30:25
Elizabeth
Yeah, I would say that they’ve probably been using followership and just the different models more heavily in corporate America just because they tend to also embrace those leadership model quicker. Right? With there’s more literature about them. If you go and look at the academic literature, there’s far more out there about corporate leadership in corporate leadership, although I will say that followership in general has been looked at, you know, within military because of that position and rank.

00:26:30:25 – 00:26:55:20
Elizabeth
And everyone kind of knows what that looks like. But there’s also that need to be somewhat obedient because you need to follow orders. But then also having the ability to know, hey, we’re going in the wrong direction and I need to speak up now. It also tends to be look at followership does in areas where there are a higher percentage of female staff members or female workers.

00:26:55:22 – 00:27:29:25
Elizabeth
And so you’ll see a lot of research out there about nurses, which also kind of speaks to this. You know, there are leaders, right? Or there are those that consider themselves leaders in that environment. But really the work is done by nurses and they are actually enacting both leadership and followership in their work. And then it’s also looked at a lot in academic institutions, in particular in higher education, although we’re starting to see it kind of trickle down into K through 12 and also pre-K, there’s a strong need for it to be there.

00:27:29:28 – 00:27:52:11
Elizabeth
But again, there’s a definite need for it to be explored more inside nonprofit organizations because we have so much a greater need for shared leadership. And so we really do need to look at how do we embrace followers and how do we strengthen them so that we can leverage the most from our individuals. So we can achieve our missions?

00:27:52:13 – 00:28:11:11
Ruth
Elizabeth, this has been fascinating followership. She’s provided us with some great resources. So dig into this. It’s something that’s really important for organizations and let’s let the nonprofit sector be the leader, right? And then follow the great things that you can do as a follower. So thank you again.

00:28:11:13 – 00:28:15:18
Elizabeth
And thank you so much for having me. I have enjoyed this.

00:28:15:20 – 00:28:37:14
Ruth
Thank you for joining us for KC Cares. We’re Kansas City’s nonprofit voice, and we’re produced by Charitable communications, also a nonprofit. This KC Cares segment was brought to you by the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. WW W Kauffman talk if you’d like to be a guest on KC Cares or underwriting opportunities, go to our Web site, KC Cares online dot org and spread the love.

00:28:37:14 – 00:28:54:17
Ruth
You’ll find us on Facebook and Twitter at KC Cares Radio and on Instagram at KC Cares online. And don’t forget, you can catch us Saturday mornings at 8 a.m. on ESPN, 15:10 a.m. and 94.5 FM. Thanks for joining us on KC Cares.

00:36:15:01 – 00:36:25:02

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