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Exploring Followership with Elizabeth Ireland: Insights for Nonprofit Success

Elizabeth Ireland | Assoc Director of Training

Elizabeth Ireland, Director of Training at the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership, discusses the crucial yet often overlooked concept of followership in nonprofit organizations in her interview with KC Cares. She explains the evolution of followership, distinguishing between role-based and social process perspectives. Ireland highlights key traits of effective followers, including autonomy, high standards, and a purpose-driven approach, which are vital for nonprofit success. She also delves into the interplay between leadership and followership, emphasizing how effective followership contributes to positive organizational dynamics. This interview provides valuable insights for nonprofits looking to strengthen their team dynamics and achieve greater mission impact by recognizing and nurturing effective followership.

visit them here: https://info.umkc.edu/centers/mcnl/

 

What Nonprofit Questions Are Answered?

1. What is followership and why is it important in nonprofits?
Ans:- The interview answers this by defining followership and its significance in shaping organizational success, particularly in the nonprofit sector.

2. How has the concept of followership evolved over time?
Ans:- Elizabeth Ireland explains the historical context and evolution of followership in leadership studies.

3. What are the characteristics of an effective follower in a nonprofit organization?
Ans:- The discussion focuses on key traits such as autonomy, high standards, and purpose-driven nature.

4. How does followership impact leadership and organizational dynamics?
Ans:- The interview explores the relationship between leadership and followership, highlighting its impact on organizational outcomes.

5. Can understanding followership improve nonprofit management and team dynamics?
Ans:- Insights from the interview suggest how embracing followership can enhance management and team dynamics in nonprofits.

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Transcript:

00:00:02:21 – 00:00:17:15
Ruth
Welcome to KC Cares, Kansas City’s nonprofit voice. We’re telling the stories of Kansas City nonprofits and the people behind them. Casey Cares is that intersection of the nonprofit and profit communities making Kansas City a better place to live, work and play?

00:00:17:18 – 00:00:44:12
Ruth
This KC Cares segment is brought to you by the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. www dot Kauffman dot org. I’m Ruth Baum Bigus leadership is the ability of an individual or a group of people to influence and guide followers or members of an organization, society or team. Well, that sounds so simple. Yet there are so many things involved with leadership on this.

00:00:44:12 – 00:01:06:01
Ruth
Ask the expert episode. We’re exploring the concept involving leadership that may be new to some of us. It’s called followership. Here to explore followership is someone who has been studying it for some time. We welcome Elizabeth Ireland, who is the director of training at the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership at the Henry Bloch School of Business at the University of Missouri, Kansas City.

00:01:06:03 – 00:01:15:06
Ruth
Elizabeth recently presented a session on this topic as part of the center’s Leadership Conference. Well, welcome, Elizabeth. I feel we’re ready to dive into followership.

00:01:15:08 – 00:01:18:15
Elizabeth
Thank you for having me. I’m very excited.

00:01:18:17 – 00:01:28:19
Ruth
All right. We got to start at a base, right? So what is followership? And when did this term arise?

00:01:28:22 – 00:01:50:03
Elizabeth
Yeah. So I think it’s really a good spot to start at, like defining how we generally think about followership or how it’s been relayed to us in the literature. And so there tend to be two different camps that followership falls into. And the first is a role based, and that one emerged first. And then the second one is this social process.

00:01:50:03 – 00:02:20:17
Elizabeth
Camp And so role based really is this idea that individuals enact their followership based on having a formal or even an informal role or position. In this case, we talk about organizations, but it could really be in various different aspects of their social life. The other side is a social process camp and that says that it’s socially constructed and that it’s more relational between leaders and followers.

00:02:20:19 – 00:02:33:12
Elizabeth
And there tends to be a little bit more flexibility in who is considered the leader and who is considered the follower. And they’re able to kind of switch back and forth based on the context.

00:02:33:15 – 00:02:45:25
Ruth
How did this a science, this this new area of thought under the umbrella of leadership even come into being? How did folks just kind of dive into this?

00:02:46:02 – 00:03:15:29
Elizabeth
Yeah, because we’re so heavily focused on leadership all the time. That’s a really great question. So as you know, for much of our leadership studies, it’s really been focused on the leader themselves, right? Their traits, their behaviors, their characteristics. Are they charismatic? Are they intelligent? Are they tall? Believe it or not, that was one. But then as it shifted forward, there was always some conversation of followers inside the literature.

00:03:16:02 – 00:03:53:07
Elizabeth
So they were regarded differently depending on the perspective. So somewhere around the mid eighties, towards the end of the eighties, Robert Kelley put out a article called In Praise of Followers in the Harvard Business Review. And that really sparked this emergence of followership and talking about what it means to be a follower, what it means to be an effective follower inside organization, and really began to say, Hey, we have been thinking about followers for weight or leaders for way too long, and it’s time that we actually start giving some attention to followers and giving them the credit that they deserve.

00:03:53:07 – 00:04:17:03
Elizabeth
Because more often than not, we’re going to serve and a follower role rather than in a leadership role. And so we really do need to focus on followers. It’s also a role based approach. His approach is model and then moving forward into the mid-nineties, Eric, Caleb said, Hey, this is a really great idea. And he kind of built that out a little further, though he looks at it slightly different.

00:04:17:05 – 00:04:44:05
Elizabeth
He looks at whether or not followers are supportive of leaders and of their organizations, but also this idea that they need to be really courageous, which means they need to stand up for their leaders, but they also need to be able to stand up to their leaders. We move a little bit forward. We have Barbara Kellerman in 2008 and she actually kind of says, hey, let’s pare this way back and just look at one dimension of being a follower.

00:04:44:05 – 00:05:09:08
Elizabeth
And so she looks at just that engagement piece, and she says that followers really are individuals that don’t necessarily have power or influence. So they may have some degree of authority. Beyond that, we start shifting into those more social process perspectives, which says, you know, this really is a process where leaders and followers are agreeing to be that identity, right?

00:05:09:08 – 00:05:29:20
Elizabeth
In some instances, I’m a leader and in some instances I’m a follower. And if I choose to be a follower, then that means I’m granting you the ability to be the leader. And we have this more code constructed or co-produced. Look at what it means to be a leader and what it means to be a follower.

00:05:29:22 – 00:05:31:17
Ruth
That’s a lot to unpack.

00:05:31:19 – 00:05:32:29
Elizabeth
If you know, where.

00:05:32:29 – 00:06:03:10
Ruth
Do we start? So I like that you had mentioned, I think sometimes people feel if I’m a follower, you know, the Chiefs, the Indians and the Indians are just slogging through the mud. You know, Carrie hitting the packages while the leader is upfront. Charismatic. Yeah, but as you describe this, the father really has a very important role to play in organizations.

00:06:03:16 – 00:06:13:23
Ruth
Let’s talk about that a little bit. What are those characteristics or what are those commonality that followers should have to be? Good followers, I guess.

00:06:13:25 – 00:06:34:22
Elizabeth
That’s a really great place to start. So I tend to, when I’m explaining this or I’m talking to individuals for the first time, because first off, most people are like, what is followership and why are we talking about followers? I tend to have them start with those role based approaches, and Robert Kelly’s is usually the first one I introduce just because it is familiar.

00:06:34:22 – 00:06:55:15
Elizabeth
Whether or not we realize it, we understand what these follower types are because we’ve seen them in organizations, we’ve seen them in our social lives, we’ve seen them on movies and TV, right? So they are kind of familiar to us. And so he looks at followership in terms of whether or not there is engagement and whether or not there’s critical thinking.

00:06:55:22 – 00:07:23:05
Elizabeth
And so to Robert Kelly, he says that, you know, really effective followers, which is what we should all strive to be, are individuals who are able to manage themselves well so they’re able to do their work with a high degree of autonomy. And in fact, they absolutely need that in order to do their best work. They’re also individuals that have really high standards, and so they’re not necessarily looking to get the job done quickly with a lower quality product.

00:07:23:05 – 00:07:47:16
Elizabeth
So they’re going to really have those high standards and strive to do the absolute best for the organization. They’re also individuals who are purpose driven, and so they have this strong need to have to support someone other than themselves, which makes it a really natural fit for the nonprofit context. Because, you know, we all seem to be purpose driven in this work.

00:07:47:16 – 00:08:09:15
Elizabeth
And so it’s just a really good connector because we’re already kind of bought into that piece. Initially, individuals who are effective followers also really work on building their confidence. So they’re going to be those lifetime learners. If they don’t know something, they’re going to go out and be self-motivated and want to learn it, because again, they have really high standards and they want to do what’s best for the organization.

00:08:09:17 – 00:08:30:24
Elizabeth
And they’re also going to focus their efforts for maximum impact, which means that they know what their strengths are and they play to their strengths. Although there are certainly opportunities to grow in the areas that we’re less strong in, they know how to make the most impact inside their organization. And then finally, they are individuals that are courageous, right?

00:08:30:24 – 00:08:54:22
Elizabeth
So they’re willing to stand up to their leader when they need to. And we use leader loosely there. Right. So it could be all kinds of different individuals, especially in the nonprofit context. They’re also really honest. Right. So they’re going to be authentic and they’re going to kind of tell you like it is, although they’re definitely tactful and because they are honest and because they are authentic, they are viewed as being more credible.

00:08:54:24 – 00:09:01:06
Elizabeth
And so they tend to be experts inside their organizations or inside their field.

00:09:01:08 – 00:09:04:22
Ruth
And you be a bad follower. Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:04:23 – 00:09:29:10
Elizabeth
You can definitely be a bad follower. And that kind of brings us into this idea of, you know, how do we think about ourselves as a follower? How do we think of others as followers and these ideas and sort of conceptions of what it means to be a follower are things that we started early in our life, and we’ve kind of just built them as we got it, and now we’re bringing them into our organizations.

00:09:29:10 – 00:09:49:07
Elizabeth
So for some, you know, being a bad follower means that they’re really passive, so they’re not engaged in the work. They just come in, they do the bare minimum and, you know, they get their paycheck and they’re just really not looking to make any waves. But they’re also not making any great impact because, you know, again, they’re very passive.

00:09:49:09 – 00:10:10:05
Elizabeth
Others might be alienated followers. And so the interesting piece there is that you could actually be a really effective follower. But if there’s a miss or a misalignment between leaders and followers, and that could also include how leaders think individuals should follow, because for some leaders, they have this more hierarchical view. And so they think that you should be passive, right?

00:10:10:05 – 00:10:32:10
Elizabeth
You should be obedient. And we definitely don’t want that inside organizations because that’s not how we grow and thrive. So if you were an effective follower, there’s that miss that you might actually slip into being alienated, which just means that you’re really critical of the leader, but it also means that you’re more likely to look at looking for another job.

00:10:32:10 – 00:11:06:20
Elizabeth
And so that turnover and tension grows within you. But there are also just individuals that refuse to follow, and that’s just kind of their conception of it. And they they just want to be a leader and so they will not follow anyone. So yes, there are bad followers, but I hope with more education and more intentionality behind strengthening who we are as followers, but also as leaders strengthening who others are as followers and letting them have more leadership opportunities, We can kind of help resolve some of that.

00:11:06:23 – 00:11:36:05
Ruth
I remember sitting in your presentation, which was so interesting and such a diverse group of people in the room. So when we did group work, it was interesting. You could kind of tell what kinds of organizations and what role people played and if it was working well in terms of leaders and followers. At any rate, how much does personality and who you are playing to, what kind of a follower you may be?

00:11:36:07 – 00:11:39:00
Ruth
Yeah, that’s absolutely fair.

00:11:39:02 – 00:12:03:23
Elizabeth
So it’s kind of a multi pronged approach, right? So we need to understand what is our quote unquote native follower style, although it’s a spectrum and we shift in that. But we also have to compare that with, you know, are we an introvert or are we an extrovert also? How do you what are those implicit feelings that we have towards leadership and who leaders should be and what makes a good leader?

00:12:03:25 – 00:12:24:08
Elizabeth
All of that, our willingness to speak up, but also providing opportunities for people to speak up. It all plays a part in to creating a more effective followers, but personality is definitely an aspect to it, just as it is with leadership.

00:12:24:10 – 00:12:48:17
Ruth
Okay, you get that that Debbie Downer or David Downer in there, Is there is there a way to ask the leader, let’s say work with those followers to raise up and try to mitigate that, maybe how they learn to be a follower?

00:12:48:19 – 00:13:26:09
Elizabeth
Yes. And they need a lot of support from you as a leader. They also need a lot of peer modeling. And so for person, they may have that perspective because they’ve had other leaders in the past that have said, you need to be obedient and you need to be passive because that’s the conception that they had. And so you may actually just need to show them a different way, but it does take a lot of time because you’re going to have to build that trust first, to create that safe space for them to be able to challenge or to even get them engaged enough to the point where they’re wanting to take on more challenging

00:13:26:09 – 00:13:48:16
Elizabeth
task and kind of grow that sense of autonomy. So yes, you can improve them. It just takes a lot of work. But there are also other perspectives that look at it that are kind of more from that engagement piece. And they say, you know, this is how you more strategically move individuals along that follower spectrum. And a lot of that means you have to get important to the purpose of the organization.

00:13:48:18 – 00:14:08:15
Elizabeth
You had to build those relationships among peers and then also with the leaders and just model the way for them so that they know that they can kind of grow in this way. And hopefully it improves, although again, there are some of those individuals that are just never going to follow. And so we don’t always need people to challenge.

00:14:08:15 – 00:14:29:25
Elizabeth
Sometimes we just have people to come in and do the work. And so that’s fine when they get more disruptive or they’re constantly challenging a leader or they’re really confrontational, that’s where you kind of have to start working those more performance management pieces to either help them get them on board or get them to a different opportunity, if you will.

00:14:29:28 – 00:14:59:29
Ruth
You mentioned a big five letter word, I think trust. Yeah. Sounds like that is absolutely key in in being a follower and being the leader in being a follower, is trust something that can be challenged or inspired, perhaps so that you play the game, as it were?

00:15:00:01 – 00:15:25:10
Elizabeth
Yeah, I think you could definitely look at it from your perspective. So first off, trust underpins everything that we do in that organization. So individuals have followers, if you will, who trust their leader, are going to have higher performance, they’re going to have less turnover and hence they’re going to have greater satisfaction and commitment to the organization. So there’s all of these really great benefits that come from building trust.

00:15:25:13 – 00:15:51:29
Elizabeth
But if you are an effective follower and you’re willing to challenge a leader and you have a leader who maybe is less than ethical or maybe you see that the organization is going in a direction that they shouldn’t go in and the follower in the leader shut you down on that. That is going to erode your sense of trust that might actually propel you from going from effectiveness, like being an effective follower to being an alienated follower.

00:15:52:02 – 00:16:08:04
Elizabeth
And then you’re going to start again looking at that turnover intent or having a higher sense of burnout, whereas you have that drive to kind of push through. Now things are kind of you’re feeling the effects of it more because the relationship between the leader and you is strained.

00:16:08:06 – 00:16:19:10
Ruth
You’ve been studying this a while and when you look at leadership, do leaders need to have been followers?

00:16:19:13 – 00:16:22:15
Elizabeth
Yes, Yes, absolutely. Be the.

00:16:22:15 – 00:16:22:26
Ruth
Best.

00:16:22:26 – 00:16:43:09
Elizabeth
Leaders are individuals who are really effective followers. And it’s funny because if you look at the different traits and characteristics and behaviors of followers, they mirror that of leadership. It’s just that you look at it from more of a partnership perspective or like we’re working together. And in this instance, I’m the leader. And in that instance I’m the follower.

00:16:43:12 – 00:16:59:29
Elizabeth
Instead of this like command and control style that says I’m always the leader, you need to be passive and obedient and just be a yes person and do your job. And so, yes, the really great leaders are also really great followers.

00:17:00:01 – 00:17:22:13
Ruth
We had a colleague of yours on the show a few months ago, Tom Van Saki, talking about Founder’s Syndrome. So I’m wondering, you know, in that founder’s syndrome, do they have a missing gap of followership where maybe they you know, they’ve never been the follower? You know, they’ve always been the leader.

00:17:22:15 – 00:17:42:16
Elizabeth
Yeah. And then, you know, it’s a very complicated issue there. There’s a lot of emotions and feelings around that. But if they are the type of leader that doesn’t like, again, to be challenged, right, that sort of wants to have everything rubber stamped by the board or rubber stamped by the staff, they’re going to be really used to that.

00:17:42:16 – 00:18:02:04
Elizabeth
And that’s going to be hard to let go and to kind of look at leadership from a different perspective and kind of say, hey, I’m going to bring this person on in order to have a succession plan. But we’re really we’re going to be partners letting go of that leadership piece, if that’s a really strong piece of their identity, is going to be really hard for them.

00:18:02:06 – 00:18:16:25
Ruth
You mentioned a few moments ago to another word that kind of stuck out with me is that’s partnership is is that key to be a good follower in the whole dynamic, you know, of an organization?

00:18:16:27 – 00:18:42:06
Elizabeth
Yeah, I would say that there’s a time and place, right? There’s a context and situation for both leading and following, but that the most effective forms tend to be those that are more of a partnership where they’re treated more not necessarily as equals, right? Their supervisors and their subordinates, even though we don’t love that word, followers. So there is a hierarchy there.

00:18:42:06 – 00:18:59:00
Elizabeth
But from that social process angle, they’re partners, right? They’re creating leadership and followership together because it’s what’s in the best interest of the organization, and it helps them achieve their mission in a more effective way.

00:18:59:02 – 00:19:23:01
Ruth
We’re talking with Elizabeth Ireland. She’s the associate director of training at the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership, and she is the guru on followership. Our organization’s talking about this. Is this something now that nonprofits, when they, you know, take time to to look at how they’re run? Are folks talking about this and are they embracing it?

00:19:23:03 – 00:19:45:13
Elizabeth
I think that they are talking about issues related to followership and followers. So they may not be looking at it from an academic followership lens. Right. They may not actually know that’s what they’re doing, but they’re certainly talking about the issues at hand. One of the things that we need to do a little bit better as an academic community is include followership.

00:19:45:13 – 00:20:13:03
Elizabeth
And with our leadership coursework, I have been through or leadership classes than I can count. And I think I only heard the word followership once in all of that time, although I certainly use for all of my projects and every speech I did in class. But within organizations, we just need to start talking about it a little bit more, in particular with the nonprofit organization and nonprofit sector.

00:20:13:05 – 00:20:46:09
Elizabeth
So in general, Followership Lags Leadership studies, right? We go to Barnes and Noble or another bookstore. We’re going to see far more books on leadership than we are on followership. And if we look even, we kind of select out even more and look at just the nonprofit sector. We’re going to find far less information out there about what it means to be an effective follower inside nonprofit organizations, which is the reason why I’m specifically looking at that with my dissertation, because there’s a need to have a sense of what it means to be a follower.

00:20:46:09 – 00:20:57:26
Elizabeth
And followership looks like, and all of those behaviors, expressions and characteristics. But that’s grounded inside the unique context of nonprofit organizations.

00:20:57:28 – 00:21:23:12
Ruth
It would seem to me if you don’t have followers, then you’re not going to move the needle forward towards your mission and I know that sounds very basic, but and I think there’s something unique I’d love to hear you address as a nonprofit. Hopefully has staff or whatever followers that are part of it. But then you have volunteers and you’re driven by boards.

00:21:23:12 – 00:21:33:13
Ruth
So how does followership play into that and how do you infiltrate in a good sense to get those folks on board?

00:21:33:16 – 00:22:02:05
Elizabeth
Yeah, So it’s not actually that basic a place to start because while we tend to think that we fix some of those issues with, you know, command and control and authoritative leadership, right? They pop up in organizations of all types and of all sizes because we’re just humans and we bring with us what we think of leadership should look like in terms of looking at specifically like segmenting out what it looks like with your staff.

00:22:02:08 – 00:22:18:09
Elizabeth
Again, you would start with Robert Kelly, Eric Taylor and just kind of look through and assess what kinds of followers you have amongst your staff. How do they naturally lean? What do they think of being a follower? You can just ask them, what does it mean to be a leader and what does it mean to be a follower?

00:22:18:11 – 00:22:39:12
Elizabeth
And that gives you a really good idea at how they approach leadership and how they approach followership. But when we look at how we have relationships with board members, there really is a need to have that sense of shared leadership. And so for that, we really need to lean and heavily towards those social process approaches that says, you know, we’re in this together.

00:22:39:15 – 00:23:05:01
Elizabeth
And again, we’re claiming the role of or the identity of leader or we’re claiming the role of our identity a follower and we’re, you know, working together towards that common purpose or that common goal. If we look at volunteer management, we are we may not need our volunteers to do a ton of critical thinking. We may not need them to challenge the leadership or, you know, challenge others inside the organization.

00:23:05:01 – 00:23:26:16
Elizabeth
We may just need them to show up and be engaged in the work that we do and be, you know, a supportive element inside our organizations. And so for that, I tend to recommend individuals look towards Barbara Kellerman’s model of followership so that they can just look at that engagement piece, right? How do we move people from that very beginning?

00:23:26:16 – 00:23:53:05
Elizabeth
Like I’m not even necessarily familiar with the organization to where they’re an activist or a diehard for the organization, although diehards can go either way, right? They could be resolved through organization or they could just you know, they could be yes. People because they’re so bought into it that they they can’t necessarily see the impact of what they’re doing if it’s not necessarily ethical or beneficial to the organization.

00:23:53:08 – 00:24:16:18
Ruth
How do you keep followers from that tipping point, as you mentioned, of being so gung ho that they think they can run it all that and I guess sabotage leadership? That’s a pretty hard word. But how do you navigate it? What is what does it say in the literature and academic circles?

00:24:16:21 – 00:24:35:18
Elizabeth
I think it’s more like the gut level of what you do there. And it’s it’s you got to look at them as a human being and just say, you know what? What are the quality of interactions that I’m having with this person? Right? Do I have positive interactions? Are they always or mostly negative interactions? How do I build the relationship again?

00:24:35:18 – 00:25:02:11
Elizabeth
So they have to be really mindful and intentional of how they respond to you as a leader and how supportive they are of you. But it also means that you may need to think about what your own conceptualization of followers are, because if you’re having a lot of individuals that are, you know, pushing back constantly, it may be that you have a different view of what follower should be than what they do.

00:25:02:19 – 00:25:27:04
Elizabeth
And so the more we can educate individuals on, first off, what followership is and all of the different types and models and ways in which you can use that to your benefit, the more we’re able to say have those tools and resources that we need when we have individuals that we may need to move, you know, advance them in that followership spectrum so that they’re more effective for the organization.

00:25:27:07 – 00:25:47:01
Elizabeth
But it’s also knowing that if we’ve gotten to the point where we’ve tried all of these things and we’ve tried to build that relationship and it’s just not working, how do we leverage those performance management tools or how do we encourage them to maybe find something that’s more fulfilling for them so that they’re less likely to be alienated.

00:25:47:03 – 00:26:01:24
Ruth
Or be a roadblock or any number of things that can cause trouble? In your studies, have you seen is corporate America embracing this versus nonprofit? Is it about the same that everybody’s getting to the this is worth looking at?

00:26:01:26 – 00:26:30:25
Elizabeth
Yeah, I would say that they’ve probably been using followership and just the different models more heavily in corporate America just because they tend to also embrace those leadership model quicker. Right? With there’s more literature about them. If you go and look at the academic literature, there’s far more out there about corporate leadership in corporate leadership, although I will say that followership in general has been looked at, you know, within military because of that position and rank.

00:26:30:25 – 00:26:55:20
Elizabeth
And everyone kind of knows what that looks like. But there’s also that need to be somewhat obedient because you need to follow orders. But then also having the ability to know, hey, we’re going in the wrong direction and I need to speak up now. It also tends to be look at followership does in areas where there are a higher percentage of female staff members or female workers.

00:26:55:22 – 00:27:29:25
Elizabeth
And so you’ll see a lot of research out there about nurses, which also kind of speaks to this. You know, there are leaders, right? Or there are those that consider themselves leaders in that environment. But really the work is done by nurses and they are actually enacting both leadership and followership in their work. And then it’s also looked at a lot in academic institutions, in particular in higher education, although we’re starting to see it kind of trickle down into K through 12 and also pre-K, there’s a strong need for it to be there.

00:27:29:28 – 00:27:52:11
Elizabeth
But again, there’s a definite need for it to be explored more inside nonprofit organizations because we have so much a greater need for shared leadership. And so we really do need to look at how do we embrace followers and how do we strengthen them so that we can leverage the most from our individuals. So we can achieve our missions?

00:27:52:13 – 00:28:11:11
Ruth
Elizabeth, this has been fascinating followership. She’s provided us with some great resources. So dig into this. It’s something that’s really important for organizations and let’s let the nonprofit sector be the leader, right? And then follow the great things that you can do as a follower. So thank you again.

00:28:11:13 – 00:28:15:18
Elizabeth
And thank you so much for having me. I have enjoyed this.

00:28:15:20 – 00:28:37:14
Ruth
Thank you for joining us for KC Cares. We’re Kansas City’s nonprofit voice, and we’re produced by Charitable communications, also a nonprofit. This KC Cares segment was brought to you by the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation. WW W Kauffman talk if you’d like to be a guest on KC Cares or underwriting opportunities, go to our Web site, KC Cares online dot org and spread the love.

00:28:37:14 – 00:28:54:17
Ruth
You’ll find us on Facebook and Twitter at KC Cares Radio and on Instagram at KC Cares online. And don’t forget, you can catch us Saturday mornings at 8 a.m. on ESPN, 15:10 a.m. and 94.5 FM. Thanks for joining us on KC Cares.

00:36:15:01 – 00:36:25:02

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